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Author Topic: I never cease to be amazed ...  (Read 12378 times)
JayMac
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« Reply #15 on: October 31, 2015, 13:50:55 »

Despite rumours and misinformation to to contrary, the DfT» (Department for Transport - about) are yet to specify house colours in any franchise agreement they tender. Current ITTs (Invitation to Tender) don't force a franchise bidder to go with a particular livery.

It's only Transport Scotland who've made such a decision.
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ChrisB
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« Reply #16 on: October 31, 2015, 14:11:43 »

Well, there wouldn't be yet, would there? :-)

The only TOC (Train Operating Company) to repaint in non-TOC colours are still in their franchise & the DfT» (Department for Transport - about) is yet to retender.
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ellendune
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« Reply #17 on: October 31, 2015, 14:17:53 »

Despite rumours and misinformation to to contrary, the DfT» (Department for Transport - about) are yet to specify house colours in any franchise agreement they tender. Current ITTs (Invitation to Tender) don't force a franchise bidder to go with a particular livery.

It's only Transport Scotland who've made such a decision.

Ok.  But, it still makes sense.  And DfT might have welcomed it even if they did not specify it!
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ChrisB
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« Reply #18 on: October 31, 2015, 14:28:56 »

Or even 'encouraged' it.....
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TaplowGreen
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« Reply #19 on: October 31, 2015, 20:56:48 »

My other question was regarding the service improvements which this ^12 million creates (we'll stick to it unless/until someone comes up with another figure), rather than how long it'll take First Group to recoup it?

That depends completely on whether the alleged ^12.5m partly covers the cost of refurbishing several fleets of trains or whether that was what they spent on replacing letterheads etc.?  As I said it's obviously a long-term initiative, though I totally agree that some of the wording on the press releases/posters is pretty ridiculous.

You'll probably find that a considerable lump of the ^12.5 million was spent on the services of an advertising/marketing agency - these type of people charge large amounts of money to come up with the vapid pap you highlight on the press releases/posters..........money well spent indeed.
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JayMac
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« Reply #20 on: November 02, 2015, 17:19:41 »

Well, there wouldn't be yet, would there? :-)

So not for at least 9 years then? Based on current ITTs (Invitation to Tender).

I confidently predict that there will be no such 'house colour' provision in future ITTs awarded by the DfT» (Department for Transport - about) following expiration of current franchises, current direct awards or current extensions.
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« Reply #21 on: November 02, 2015, 17:21:29 »

Or even 'encouraged' it.....

How do they 'encourage' bidders to do something without specifying it explicitly?
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ellendune
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« Reply #22 on: November 02, 2015, 21:48:41 »

Or even 'encouraged' it.....

How do they 'encourage' bidders to do something without specifying it explicitly?

Sir Humphrey Appleby would have mentioned it to some senior executive that the inclusion of such a point in their bid would be looked on favourably.

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JayMac
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« Reply #23 on: November 02, 2015, 22:02:56 »

Yes Minister
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TaplowGreen
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« Reply #24 on: November 03, 2015, 08:29:56 »

Or even 'encouraged' it.....

How do they 'encourage' bidders to do something without specifying it explicitly?

Sir Humphrey Appleby would have mentioned it to some senior executive that the inclusion of such a point in their bid would be looked on favourably.



.............I hope you're not suggesting that Civil servants would act inappropriately in procurement matters? (Perhaps in the hope of future Non executive positions?) Wink
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ellendune
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« Reply #25 on: November 03, 2015, 18:54:40 »

.............I hope you're not suggesting that Civil servants would act inappropriately in procurement matters? (Perhaps in the hope of future Non executive positions?) Wink

Not at all - they might merely point out that such a provision in such a short term bid, would be favoured since it would be seen as offering value for money to the taxpayer in avoiding unnecessary costs for the winner of the next franchise.
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stuving
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« Reply #26 on: November 03, 2015, 20:35:38 »

Or simply waited until a full fat franchise was let. It does seem rather profligate to rebrand for a period of just 54 months. Refurbishments could have been done in existing colours. The toxic word 'First' could have been quietly dropped from the FGW (First Great Western) brand.

I thought this got thoroughly aired before, by reference to the franchise agreement. However, I can't find it now. I would have had a futile attempt to find it using the so-called "search" function, but as SQL is currently very unwell I can't do that either.

Anyway, it's in Schedule 14.2 - which I'll quote in its entirety if you like. But the key bit is at the beginning, where it says:
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2.2 Subject to any applicable obligations or restrictions on the Franchisee (including the terms of the Rolling Stock Leases), the Franchisee may apply registered or unregistered trademarks (including company names, livery and other distinctive get-up) to any assets owned or used by it in the operation and provision of the Franchise Services.

I wonder how proud Eversheds are of "distinctive get-up" as legal terminology - but it does appear to cover a colour associated with the operator as a company, not with this railway.

The text goes on to say that the operator must not hand over assets with any of this branding that the successor cannot use, or else it must pay for "covering such Marks or otherwise removing all indications of or reference to the Marks in a manner reasonably acceptable to the Secretary of State." This isn't just about trains, either:
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(d) The amount to be paid to a Successor Operator under paragraph 2.2(c) may include the reasonable cost of:
        (i) removing or covering Marks from the exterior of any rolling stock vehicle;
        (ii) removing or covering interior indications of the Marks including upholstery and carpets;
        (iii) replacing or covering all station or other signs including bill boards; and
        (iv) otherwise ensuring that such removal, covering or replacement is effected with all reasonable care and in such manner that the relevant assets may reasonably continue to be used by a Successor Operator in the provision of the Franchise Services.
I guess that could even extend to the overall colour scheme of the stations too, not just signage, if that was too "corporate".

I can see several grey areas here - such as what about such "marks" applied before this franchise (I have not looked at their first one), or applied now but in the same colours as before, or almost the same colour but a bit darker. As in everything else, DfT» (Department for Transport - about) have set themselves up as arbiter in any disputes between operators, so presumably they would have been consulted as to how they were minded to decide such matters. Of course a lot of the trains will be new, so unless they are left in Hitachi White some colour has to be chosen.

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ellendune
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« Reply #27 on: November 03, 2015, 22:02:56 »

So this would apply to the FGW (First Great Western) Pink and Blue livery which is clearly First Group Livery, but it would not apply necessarily to the GWR (Great Western Railway) branding which First may be prepared to pass to a subsequent franchisee, or to the Green colour without the GWR branding.  I seem to recall the GWR name as a brand belongs to DfT» (Department for Transport - about) in some form. 
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stuving
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« Reply #28 on: November 03, 2015, 22:34:52 »

The GWR (Great Western Railway) logo was registered (UK00003064468) by First in their name. They might offer it for transfer, or rely on its removal by peeling it off; though quite what they would do with it with no franchise I can't imagine. I don't see why they should need to make that public, at least not for a while yet.
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