Penalty Fares

[whole diary]

[Fourbee]

Are North Downs Stations still in the Penalty Fares scheme?

The Penalty Fares Network Map on this page tends to suggest they are:
http://www.firstgreatwestern.co.uk/Train-times-and-tickets/Buy-Before-you-Board---Penalty-Fares

Then individual station pages e.g. Crowthorne suggest they are not:
http://www.firstgreatwestern.co.uk/Your-journey/At-the-station/Crowthorne

[Brucey]

According to the FGW^▸ (First Great Western) website, Paddington does not have Penalty Fares either.

I believe this is an error caused by a recent update to the National Rail Enquiries website, where Penalty Fare information is no longer shown on the individual station pages.  This has caused the FGW website to show incorrect information.

[Fourbee]

Sometimes I only carry cash on me - that was the reason for the interest (some TVM^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine)'s no longer accept cash due to vandalism). In practice, tickets are usually issued on the train without question anyway.

[JayMac]

If the only facility at your origin station is a card only Ticket Vending Machine (TVM^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine)) and you only have cash then you haven't passed an opportunity to purchase a ticket and you shouldn't face a Penalty Fare.

You still however must purchase a ticket at the earliest opportunity, be that on the train or at your destination. You can also purchase at an interchange station if time allows, but you shouldn't have to delay your journey to do so.

Don't ever be tempted to leave your destination station (if it offers an opportunity to purchase) without paying. It's not unknown for revenue blocks to be in place beyond the last opportunity to pay. Pass that opportunity and it's an easy prosecution for a TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company).

[Fourbee]

That's interesting to know. I know about the excess fares windows say at Guildford and Reading. I would always avail myself of these if needed (obviously you couldn't exit the station normally without doing so!), but also even if continuing into SWT^▸ (South West Trains) land.

[BerkshireBugsy]

That's interesting to know. I know about the excess fares windows say at Guildford and Reading. I would always avail myself of these if needed (obviously you couldn't exit the station normally without doing so!), but also even if continuing into SWT^▸ (South West Trains) land.

I am aware that this as been discussed before BUT sometimes at same stations it is not possible (with the best of intentions) to buy a ticket. For example at my local station (Thatcham) there is a card only TVM^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) and a ticket office which seems to be open as advertised. Even if the TVM s not showing out of services on a cold/damp morning it can be impossible to use in situations where you have to use the keyboard to type the station name (as an example)

However on this route the TMs^‡(resolve) accept that passengers board without tickets but they are given the chance to buy them on board.

On my many journeys on the north downs line i must say ticket checks are very thorough and there are often occasions when passengers who refuse to purchase a ticket re ejected (but sadly not whilst the train is moving)

[thetrout]

(but sadly not whilst the train is moving)

BB That one made me chuckle

I sometimes find that the whole 'Penalty Fares' system a little bit confusing on the terms of last opportunity (As I have raised before). For instance. Say I make a journey from Trowbridge to Bath Spa in the evening. There are no TVM^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine)'s there (Were removed a few years ago). The ticket office closes early and is often closed due to staff shortages. So you board the train.

Now it's certainly not unheard of for the Guard not to be able to get through the train without being able to sell everyone a ticket who needs one. Especially (and I don't like saying this) You have a group of the younger generation of passengers who can't decide who is going to pay/disputing the fare etc etc etc. Other occasions the Avantix^▸ (Ticket Issuing System used on board trains) Machines have failed (More common than FGW^▸ (First Great Western) will have you believe)

So assuming you get to Bath Spa and the ticket office is closed, the gateline is open, But there are TVM's at Bath Spa (Six of the little blighters). However does this count as a reasonable opportunity to pay? I would say no. Because you can only buy Bath Spa - Trowbridge which is not the journey you made, so in essence your ticket would not be valid...

There are also some variations as we discussed some time ago where tickets from stations are cheaper/more expensive when you make the exact same journey but in the reverse orders!

[BerkshireBugsy]

(but sadly not whilst the train is moving)

BB That one made me chuckle

One of the side effects of travelling the same route frequently is that you tend to know the TM^‡(resolve) and what their quirks are.

I am certainly not going to loosely identify any of them because most of them (on the north downs route) are reasonably thorough . However with some TMs you know there is a good chance you will hear one of the following announcements

1) if you would like to buy a ticket pease ale your way to the front/rear of the train where I will be happy to serve you
2) sadly my ticket machine (avantix) is not operational so you will need to purchase a ticket at your destination (always seems to happen to the same TM)
3) the TM will make their way through the train asking that "if anyone would like to buy a ticket " ...maybe tax returns should be done on the same basis..those who would like to pay tax please contact your local tax office

[JayMac]

In thetrout's scenario, I'd argue that having TVM^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine)'s at the destination station that can only sell tickets for the 'wrong' direction is not an opportunity to purchase the ticket for the journey you have just made.

In this case it is the rail industry that has failed to gather the revenue, rather than the passenger failing to take the opportunity to purchase the correct ticket for their journey.

It'd be highly unlikely for a revenue block to be in place beyond either an open ticket office, or from someone with an Avantix^▸ (Ticket Issuing System used on board trains). If there was such a block, then passengers who had travelled from a station that had no (or a closed) ticket office and/or a TVM set to 'card only' should be allowed to make their purchase rather than be Penalty Fared or reported for prosecution.

Of course it is also possible for TVMs to sell tickets from any origin - that's a software issue - but it's not a function FGW^▸ (First Great Western) currently allows on its TVMs.

If, despite the rail industry's failure to offer you an opportunity to purchase a ticket at any point, you feel strongly that you must pay your fare, then you can always send the TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) a cheque or postal order. Or buy two tickets the next time you make the same journey. 

[eightf48544]

In this case it is the rail industry that has failed to gather the revenue, rather than the passenger failing to take the opportunity to purchase the correct ticket for their journey.

A very interesting point, presumably the industry has concluded that the cost of collection of these fares is less than the potential revenue gain.

This seems to me to have a couple of interesting consequences, Firstly that a profit can be made on the fares collected against the costs incurred or that where applicable subsidies make up the difference.

Now the interesting point is what affect dioes that have on the level of collected fares?

Are they higher than they need to be to offset the lost revenue or the right price or even cheaper because it would cost more to collect the lost reveue than would be gained in income?

I haven't a clue what the answer is and I suspect niether does Daft, but I bet the TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) know!

[swrural]

All good points 8F.  Do we have an insight as to the difference between pax counts and the same statistic based on tickets sold?  In other words, the percentage pax travelling free being the difference on any route.  It seems to me (disregarding all questions of what is fair and right regarding the pax who *do* pay)  that when discussing franchise renewal, an important subject is dealing with overcrowding and it will be the rammed services that doubtless have the worst revenue collection, perhaps leading to the error that they are not rammed? 

[BerkshireBugsy]

I don't have access to the data behind ticket sales on trains but on one of my frequent routes they introduced "random" ticket checks on my service where, to be blunt, it was easily possible for passengers to travel between certain stations without paying for a ticket.

I got to know one of the TMs^‡(resolve) quite well and he would often tell me how much revenue was taken in my journey and it was often in the region of ^300+

Now this doesn't automatically mean that would have been that amount in lost revene because some of those would have been weekly renewals. However it was not unusual for the TM to recover over ^100 in what would have been "lost" fairs. I don't know what it costs to employ a TM but I would suggest that ^100+ over a 25 minute journey is not a bad return.

One of the side effects of these random checks is that fair dodgers on this journey are far fewer than they used to be which as far as I m concerned can only be a good thing

[Fourbee]

I imagine discouraging fare dodgers would also have the intangible benefit of boosting staff morale.

Fewer fare dodgers = fewer confrontations 

[thetrout]

I personally prefer to buy my tickets from staff onboard rather than from a TVM^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine). I am a big believer in use it or lose it. When starting my journeys from Frome (Not a PF^▸ (Penalty Fare) Station ) if the ticket office is closed, I don't even bother with the TVM because it has charged me twice for a Frome - Shrewsbury FOR (Which is priced in the hundreds) which obviously isn't the greatest thing to happen and wasn't easily resolved either!

I am also on first name terms with quite a few Guards on the HoW^‡(resolve) line and I recall one particular case where the Guard on the 21:41 service from FRO^» (Frome - next trains) couldn't get to me in time and by the time she did I wouldn't have been able to make a card payment. Fortunately the same Guard brings the 23:38 back to FRO from Bath Spa, and as thetrout is a trustworthy individual I paid for my FRO - BTH^» (Bath Spa - next trains) Day Return on the return journey with no dramas

I have always said I do not condone faredodging in any way shape or form. I am quite comfortable with exploiting loop holes for ticket splitting etc and I don't feel pressed enough to send a Cheque to the TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) if they cannot collect payment from me.

There have also been occasions where I have asked to purchase a Weekend First upgrade and had my request declined but told I can remain in First Class. Sometimes you really can't win whilst at the same time very much winning!

[BerkshireBugsy]

I personally prefer to buy my tickets from staff onboard rather than from a TVM^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine). I am a big believer in use it or lose it.

Interesting point of view. The down side (IMHO^▸ (in my humble opinion)) of buying a ticket on board is that the mag stripe never seems to be accepted by the gate line readers. On a daily ticket this isn't much if a problem but most my journeys involve weekly tickets and for those it gets a bit irritating.

I don't know if the "avantix mad stripe" problem is because the machines don't code the stripe in the first pace or they are just skewed or some other reason I'm not aware off.