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Box Tunnel, east of Bath, on the Great Western Main Line - moved topics, merged posts
 
Box Tunnel, east of Bath, on the Great Western Main Line - moved topics, merged posts
Posted by grahame at 06:10, 11th November 2007
 
http://www.wiltshiretimes.co.uk/news/corsham/display.var.1801663.0.phone_mast_plans_approved.php

As an inhabitant of the quiet coach, I'm not sure how many and where the (other?) holes are in mobile phone coverage on our rail network ...

Re: Mobile phone coverage through Box tunnel - coming?
Posted by Jim at 07:57, 11th November 2007
 
Why! Can't they just wait 2 minutes before continuing, surley a 2 minute break for those poor passengers listening to someones whole personal life story isn't too much to ask!

Re: Mobile phone coverage through Box tunnel - coming?
Posted by Mookiemoo at 11:57, 11th November 2007
 
to be fare though, sometimes it isnt that.

i've been known to have a conference call

Re: Mobile phone coverage through Box tunnel - coming?
Posted by Graz at 15:20, 11th November 2007
 
It always used to make me laugh when people got cut off through tunnels who didn't even seem to realise they were in one...."Hello...hello...hello!"

I enjoyed the peace, till their phones started ringing when the train left the tunnel!

Box Tunnel, east of Bath, on the Great Western Main Line - moved topics, merged posts
Posted by smokey at 21:14, 1st January 2008
 
It's a fairly well known fact that on certain days around Brunels Birthday the Rising Sun shines right through Box Tunnel, but has anyone ever seen a photograph of this happening?

Re: Box Tunnel at sunrise on Brunel's birthday (9 April) - merged topics, ongoing discussion
Posted by smokey at 22:33, 6th January 2008
 
Errm, NO takers, Nobodys seen a Photo of the Sun Shining straight though BOX Tunnel, Me wonders is this a great big Wiltshire Joke on the rest of Britain?

Do I take it that the Sun Shining though this tunnel is a miff, sorry Myth.

Re: Box Tunnel at sunrise on Brunel's birthday (9 April) - merged topics, ongoing discussion
Posted by Chris from Nailsea at 22:47, 6th January 2008
 
I think the jury is still out on this one: all I've been able to to find is this - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Box_Tunnel#Brunel.27s_birthday

Re: Box Tunnel at sunrise on Brunel's birthday (9 April) - merged topics, ongoing discussion
Posted by Chris from Nailsea at 22:56, 6th January 2008
 
'Spoke' too soon - I've also found this: "A photograph of the event was taken in 1985 (GReat Western 150 year) by a BR Engineer and was used on the front of the BR booklet issued to staff for the "Triple Gold" celebrations in 1991" at http://www.bbc.co.uk/wiltshire/content/articles/2006/04/05/brunel_200_wiltshire_feature.shtml

Re: Box Tunnel at sunrise on Brunel's birthday (9 April) - merged topics, ongoing discussion
Posted by Lee at 12:16, 21st February 2008
 
Box Tunnel, which claimed the lives of about 100 workers during its construction in the 1830s, will be the focus of Building Wonders next Thursday (link below.)
http://thisisbath.co.uk/displayNode.jsp?nodeId=163490&command=displayContent&sourceNode=163316&contentPK=19935583&folderPk=89126&pNodeId=163047

The six-part ITV West series is being presented by archaeologist and broadcaster Julian Richards.

Richards will take a look at iconic West Country landmarks and explain how and why they were made.

Thursday's programme starts at 7.30pm.

Re: Box Tunnel at sunrise on Brunel's birthday (9 April) - merged topics, ongoing discussion
Posted by smokey at 14:08, 24th February 2008
 
Sure hope someone has a nice shot of the Sun shining though the tunnel as the sun rises around Brunel's Birthday.

Brunel must have been one hell of a clever bloke, it's still outside most civil engineers of today to work out the angle's and alignment to be as clever as this, and if this was tackled it would be done on a PC.

Re: Box Tunnel at sunrise on Brunel's birthday (9 April) - merged topics, ongoing discussion
Posted by Phil at 18:55, 24th February 2008
 
Actually, he was a bit out, Smokey mate.

Isambard Kingdom Brunel's birthday was 9th April. The sun actually shone through on 5th June. The first train passed through Box Tunnel on 30 June, 1841.

Re: Box Tunnel at sunrise on Brunel's birthday (9 April) - merged topics, ongoing discussion
Posted by Btline at 18:58, 24th February 2008
 
i think it is a myth.

Why?

I don't think Brunel would have wanted to do anything to slow down the trains (ie moving the tunnel etc.).

Of course, I believe he could have done so- if he had wanted!!!!!

Re: Box Tunnel at sunrise on Brunel's birthday (9 April) - merged topics, ongoing discussion
Posted by smokey at 10:35, 27th February 2008
 
Actually, he was a bit out, Smokey mate.

Isambard Kingdom Brunel's birthday was 9th April. The sun actually shone through on 5th June. The first train passed through Box Tunnel on 30 June, 1841.

From what I understand the rising sun shines through Box Tunnel for several days each year around the time of Brunels Birthday, and like an Eclipse depending on exact location will last from arond a Second to as long as maybe 30 odd seconds.

I just wish to see the evidence.

Re: Box Tunnel at sunrise on Brunel's birthday (9 April) - merged topics, ongoing discussion
Posted by miniman at 07:41, 29th February 2008
 
Thought that was both interesting but in a way a little disappointing. Very surprised to see how they dropped the vertical shafts first, I had read in the past that they tunnelled from each end and met perfectly in the middle. Couldn't help feeling that the BBC, or Channel 4, or Discovery, would have made a better job of it than the light channel.

Re: Box Tunnel at sunrise on Brunel's birthday (9 April) - merged topics, ongoing discussion
Posted by smokey at 13:16, 29th February 2008
 
Thought that was both interesting but in a way a little disappointing. Very surprised to see how they dropped the vertical shafts first, I had read in the past that they tunnelled from each end and met perfectly in the middle. Couldn't help feeling that the BBC, or Channel 4, or Discovery, would have made a better job of it than the light channel.

Vertical shafts were built to make tunnel digging quicker, from each end you have just two work faces, 1 vertical shaft doubles the work faces to four, a second vertical shaft brings in 6 work faces etc.
These shafts were then left as Ventilators.

Not all tunnels have Vertical shafts, tunnels under mountains don't have ventilators, the longest Single bore Railway tunnel in Britain (on Conway valley line) over 2miles long No Ventilator. Healthy in steam days.

Re: Box Tunnel at sunrise on Brunel's birthday (9 April) - merged topics, ongoing discussion
Posted by Btline at 18:42, 29th February 2008
 
Thought that was both interesting but in a way a little disappointing. Very surprised to see how they dropped the vertical shafts first, I had read in the past that they tunnelled from each end and met perfectly in the middle. Couldn't help feeling that the BBC, or Channel 4, or Discovery, would have made a better job of it than the light channel.

Vertical shafts were built to make tunnel digging quicker, from each end you have just two work faces, 1 vertical shaft doubles the work faces to four, a second vertical shaft brings in 6 work faces etc.
These shafts were then left as Ventilators.

Not all tunnels have Vertical shafts, tunnels under mountains don't have ventilators, the longest Single bore Railway tunnel in Britain (on Conway valley line) over 2miles long No Ventilator healthy in steam days.

And very "smokey" as well!  [Image from here is not available to guests]

Re: Box Tunnel at sunrise on Brunel's birthday (9 April) - merged topics, ongoing discussion
Posted by Chris from Nailsea at 17:50, 19th March 2010
 
From the Network Rail press release:

For the first time in decades, Box Tunnel^s famous western portal can be seen displayed in its full splendour, owing to a major clean-up by Network Rail engineers.

The western portal of Box Tunnel is the grand entrance to the 2,964-metre long structure, and until today, the view of its decorated fa^ade from the public viewing platform on London Road (A4, Bath) had been blocked by overgrown plants along the railway embankment.

These invasive plants have now been carefully removed to make room for non-invasive plants to flourish and new trees to be planted without blocking the newly restored view of the Grade II* listed structure.

The viewing platform is the only vantage point of the western portal that is most accessible to the public and it is a popular destination for Brunel enthusiasts.

Network Rail^s initiative is welcomed and backed by the Railway Heritage Trust, Box and Colerne Parish Council and Wiltshire Council.  It also pays tribute to the engineer^s 204th birthday on 9 April and the upcoming 175th anniversary of Great Western Railway.

Jack Hitchcock, western maintenance director for Network Rail said: "Box Tunnel is one of Brunel^s masterpieces on Great Western and despite its age, still plays an important part in today^s modern railway.  While moving ahead with the 21st century, we also respect our heritage and today^s effort will help make this piece of history on Great Western accessible to the public.^

The Box Tunnel was the longest railway tunnel at the time of its completion in 1841 and was the final and largest engineering work on the Great Western.

It is said that Brunel had deliberately aligned the structure so that the rising sun is visible through it on his birthday every year.

Construction of the tunnel started in 1836 and the lives of about 100 'navvies' (railway construction workers) were lost during construction. Unlike the dramatic western portal, the eastern portal at Corsham has a plain brick face.

The western portal of Box Tunnel is designed in classical style, influenced by the architectural design of nearby Bath.

Fire in Box Tunnel -31 Jan 13
Posted by bobm at 11:02, 31st January 2013
 
A fire overnight inside Box Tunnel has knocked out part of the signalling.

Alternate trains between Bristol Temple Meads and Paddington, and vice versa, will operate via Chipping Sodbury missing out Bath Spa and Chippenham. The other trains will run through with delays.

Box Tunnel, east of Bath, on the Great Western Main Line - moved topics, merged posts
Posted by grahame at 09:47, 15th February 2015
 
Summer 2015 will see the most significant engineering works on the Great Western main line in 40 years, as part of the electrification program from London to Swindon, Chippenham, Bath, Bristol and South Wales. For a period of six weeks from 18th July to 31st August, Box tunnel between Chippenham and Bath Spa will be closed, and the only way for westbound trains on the main line beyond Chippenham to carry on will be via the now-single track through Melksham to Trowbridge, which has very limited signaling (so trains cannot follow each other closely) and nowhere at all for them to pass each other all the way to the outskirts of Trowbridge.

The closure is split into two periods.  From 18th July to 31st July, the line from Westbury and Trowbridge via Bradford on Avon will remain open, but thought August this too will be closed, while Bathampton Junction is remodelled. The opportunity is also being taken to undertake works on the track at the aquaduct at Dundas, which has been a tight fit for trains until now and has limited what types of trains can use thay line.  Other opportunities being grasped include other relaying miles and miles of track. As well as contining to move passengers (including commuters) in the area, and freight, some 200 engineering trains will need to arrive and depart from the work sites, from various directions.

On Friday, Phil and I met with First Great Western to learn more of the planning as it develops, and allow us to make inputs to inform the final planning. At this stage, the engineering schedules are you to be finalised and whilst Network Rail are planning their work trains with one eye to passengers, they do have an element of priority in order to avoid the need for a yet longer closure.  So we don't exactly know yet what and when passenger trains will run - but we have a good idea.

From 18th to 31st July, one of the two trains per hour from London to Bristol that usually pass through Box tunnerl will be diverted away from the area and miss Chippenham and Bath, and the second will run from Chippenham to the outskirts of Trowbridge, reversing outside Trowbridge station, and carry on up to Bath.  Most of the TransWilts services will be replaced by buses, however it is expected that there will still be a limited service - in paricular, a peak train into Swindon in the morning and back after work.  This is better than earlier indications which were of complete replacement, and the plan change comes about partly because of the huge rise in passenger numbers on the TransWilts in the last 18 months.

From 1st to 31st August, there are going to be major bus operations from Westbury / Trowbridge / Bradford-on-Avon, and from Chippenham  to Bath Spa (and some other buses too). The hourly train from Portsmouth to Cardiff that usually runs Westbury - Trowbridge - Bath Spa will be diverted from Westbury to Swindon with some (numbers under discussion) stops at Melksham.  For South Wales, there will be a connection at Swindon, with ticket validity extended to allow this route.  London to Bristol trains will run via the South Wales main line, with one an hour extended through Bristol to terminate at Bath Spa from the West.

So TransWilts summary
- 18th to 31st July - a few key trains, mostly buses on the Trowbridge / Melksham / Chippenham stretch.
- 1st to 31st August - served by diverted Cardiff / Portsmouth trains

Note also - Bank Holiday weekend of 23 / 24 / 25 May - complete closure at Swindon.  This is due to the transfer of signalling to the new Didcot centre, and will result in trains being replaced by buses.

Re: Summer 2015 - Box tunnel closure and the effect on passenger travel
Posted by PhilWakely at 11:15, 15th February 2015
 
Forgive me being very naive, but that arrangement seems particulatly complicated. Surely, all that needs to be done is three routings with a small change to timings.......... Paddington to Bristol via Wootton Bassett; Paddington to Bristol via the Westbury east curve;and Paddington to Chippenham.

This would potentially leave Trans Wilts unchanged and maybe just slight alterations to the Bristol/South Coast service. The powers that be seem to cope with West of England diversions by altering SWT services, so why not London to Bristol?

Re: Summer 2015 - Box tunnel closure and the effect on passenger travel
Posted by grahame at 11:46, 15th February 2015
 
Forgive me being very naive, but that arrangement seems particulatly complicated. Surely, all that needs to be done is three routings with a small change to timings.......... Paddington to Bristol via Wootton Bassett; Paddington to Bristol via the Westbury east curve;and Paddington to Chippenham.

This would potentially leave Trans Wilts unchanged and maybe just slight alterations to the Bristol/South Coast service. The powers that be seem to cope with West of England diversions by altering SWT services, so why not London to Bristol?

Some of what you say isn't that far from what's happening - more later.  But you do need to be aware of major flows from Swindon to Bath and from Chippenham to Bath and Bristol, and consider West Wilts and Hampshire to Bath, Bristol and South Wales.   As I say, more anon looking at individual journeys too.

Re: Summer 2015 - Box tunnel closure and the effect on passenger travel
Posted by IndustryInsider at 12:01, 15th February 2015
 
For a period of six weeks from 18th July to 31st August, Box tunnel between Chippenham and Bath Spa will be closed, and the only way for westbound trains on the main line beyond Chippenham to carry on will be via the now-single track through Melksham to Trowbridge, which has very limited signaling (so trains cannot follow each other closely) and nowhere at all for them to pass each other all the way to the outskirts of Trowbridge.

It's a shame (for the continued development of the TransWilts route) that this lengthy closure didn't result in extra signalling being installed on the Thingley Junction to Bradford Junction section.  Other areas have seen signalling improved as a result of major schemes elsewhere.  For example early in the century when the West Coast Main Line was being upgraded, Banbury to Leamington Spa was upgraded to allow the Chiltern route to be more effectively used as a diversionary route and those improvements are very handy now (when the line isn't closed due to a landslip!) with with 4-aspect colour lights replacing Absolute Block signalling and leading to the closure of Fenny Compton signal box.  Train headways were more than halved as a result.

Closer to home and the recent Swindon to Kemble redoubling will be coming in very useful for when the Severn Tunnel is closed for electrification, and ongoing maintenance, over the coming years.  Whilst electrification of the GWML wasn't the only reason for the redoubling of that section, it no doubt helped the case considerably.

So, even if just an intermediate signal in each direction, or even better a passing point, it was probably the best chance for an upgrade that the line through Melksham is likely to get for many years.

Re: Summer 2015 - Box tunnel closure and the effect on passenger travel
Posted by bobm at 12:32, 15th February 2015
 
So, even if just an intermediate signal in each direction, or even better a passing point, it was probably the best chance for an upgrade that the line through Melksham is likely to get for many years.

Is there a closure date for Westbury PSB?

Re: Summer 2015 - Box tunnel closure and the effect on passenger travel
Posted by grahame at 12:34, 15th February 2015
 
So, even if just an intermediate signal in each direction, or even better a passing point, it was probably the best chance for an upgrade that the line through Melksham is likely to get for many years.

Network Rail in their long term strategy are proposing an intermediate signal in around 10 years time.

The government's strategic freight network sees the TransWilts as a major diversionary route for freight from Southampton to the Midlands and north and has the single track section from Bradford Junction to Thingley Junction shown in green - meaning "little or no interference with passenger services" when these diversions are happening.



Rail planning is long term, and errs on the conservative side.  

* We saw this in the summer of 2011 when, for 8 Sundays, an experimental morning round trip was run between Westbury and Swindon.  The first day it was 3 or 4 cars, plans were to cut back to 2 after a week or two and then to a single carriage 153, and it was only done at all as a result of sponsorship being provided.   However, it turned out that the service was quite popular, with up to 68 passengers (and numbers growing) on the 07:30 from Westbury, and the return trip was so busy that the service stayed up at 4 carriages all through.   Even then, we were managing the marketing to ensure we didn't have to turn people away; we got it about right - just a handful denied boarding on one Sunday, and a number of complaints from potential passengers telling us we should have marketed it better because they didn't hear until too late.

* Even after proof that we could get people onto trains (as per above), the next stage had to be / still is the "experimental" service we have at the moment.  And again the setup is such that it's worked on a conservative basis, and there's some surprise in official quarters away from Wiltshire as to how well it has done.  Six days a week there are trains where people are standing, and the busiest section for that is between Melksham and Chippenham, and not on the main line where it could have been argued we were simply abstracting from other trains.

So - disappointed but not surprised at the lack of any improvements on the single line, which I understand is rudimentary in terms of signalling, with a phone call needed for each down train between boxes rather than an automatic handover.  (Will that at least improve with the move of Thingley signalling to Didcot?).

The good news is that there are early shoots of acknowledgement that the current popularity of the TransWilts may be more than a flash in the pan.   But there's inertia in the system and it takes more than just a good year for the service to have it fully cognisant of the fact that there are passengers who want to use the line - and in significant numbers too.

Re: Summer 2015 - Box tunnel closure and the effect on passenger travel
Posted by grahame at 12:36, 15th February 2015
 
So, even if just an intermediate signal in each direction, or even better a passing point, it was probably the best chance for an upgrade that the line through Melksham is likely to get for many years.

Is there a closure date for Westbury PSB?

2026 - http://www.signalbox.org/sectionc.php?year=2026

Re: Summer 2015 - Box tunnel closure and the effect on passenger travel
Posted by Timmer at 21:27, 5th March 2015
 
A page regarding the work taking place at Swindon in May has been added to the FGW website:
www.firstgreatwestern.co.uk/Swindon2015

A page regarding the work taking place in the Bath area July/August has been added to the FGW website:
www.firstgreatwestern.co.uk/Bath2015

Re: Summer 2015 - Box tunnel closure and the effect on passenger travel
Posted by phile at 10:11, 6th March 2015
 
I notice that in the second of the periods Portsmouth to Cardiffs will run to Swindon and for passengers to connect into other services.   I wonder if FGW have given any thought as to whether these other services can accommodate the additional passengers..

Re: Summer 2015 - Box tunnel closure and the effect on passenger travel
Posted by ellendune at 19:32, 6th March 2015
 
I notice that in the second of the periods Portsmouth to Cardiffs will run to Swindon and for passengers to connect into other services.   I wonder if FGW have given any thought as to whether these other services can accommodate the additional passengers..

Yes I would suspect that they have.  Given that we are talking about August and they would be joining a westbound Cardiff train from swindon I would not expect a problem except perhaps on the Friday evening before bank holiday.

Re: Summer 2015 - Box tunnel closure and the effect on passenger travel
Posted by grahame at 21:45, 6th March 2015
 
I notice that in the second of the periods Portsmouth to Cardiffs will run to Swindon and for passengers to connect into other services.   I wonder if FGW have given any thought as to whether these other services can accommodate the additional passengers..

Yes I would suspect that they have. 

I can confirm that this has indeed been considered

Re: Summer 2015 - Box tunnel closure and the effect on passenger travel
Posted by NickF at 20:28, 28th March 2015
 
I noticed today whilst out on a walk a compound has arrived at the eastern portal in Corsham:

Contractors seemed to be building a new access road between the boundary fence and the top of the embankment.

Re: Summer 2015 - Box tunnel closure and the effect on passenger travel
Posted by grahame at 15:50, 16th May 2015
 
Timetable changes from May 18th 2015 on the TransWilts

On Mondays to Fridays:
The 12:47 from Swindon to Westbury is extended to Frome, where it arrives at 13:43.
The 14:14 from Westbury to Swindon starts at Frome, at 14:04

On Saturdays:
The 15:22 from Swindon to Westbury is extended to Warminster, where it arrives at 16:17
Note - train replaced by buses on 23rd May

On Sundays:
Engineering works effect trains - please check online for your particular Sunday. 

In general, Sunday trains are now scheduled every 2 hours each way from 08:30 from Westbury / 09:26 from Swindon (starting 2 hours later fro September)

From 20th to 31st July 2015

On Mondays to Fridays
A train runs at 07:35 (Westbury), 07:40 (Trowbridge), 07:51 (Melksham), 08:02 (Chippenham) to Swindon at 08:19
Returning at 17:23 from Swindon, 17:40 (Chippenham), 17:50 (Melksham), 18:03 (Trowbridge) to Westbury at 18:10

All other trains are replace by buses during these two weeks.

From 3rd to 28th August 2015

On Mondays to Fridays, trains leave Trowbridge for Swindon at:
06:32, 07m10, 07m56, 09:15, 10m16, 12m16, 13:16, 14m16, 15:18, 16m16, 17:17, 18m16, 19:17, 20m16, 21:19 and 22:20
Trains return from Swindon at:
05m54, 07m19, 18m19, 09:22, 10m19, 13m19, 14:19, 15m22, 16:19, 17m20, 18m20, 19:22, 20m20, 21:37 and 23:18
All trains start from / continue to Westbury
All trains call at Chippenham
Trains marked "m" also call at Melksham

On Saturdays, 19 trains run in each direction of which 9 call at Melksham
On Sundays, 14 northbound and 13 southbound trains run, with 6 (northbound) and 5 (southbound) calling at Melksham

From 1st September to December, Monday to Saturday trains return to their normal timetables.
Sunday trains leave Westbury for Swindon at 10:30, 12:30, 14:35, 16:30, 18:39 and 19:41
Returning from Swindon at 11:28, 13:28, 15:28, 17:28 and 19:55

Re: Box Tunnel at sunrise on Brunel's birthday (9 April) - merged topics, ongoing discussion
Posted by Chris from Nailsea at 02:14, 20th December 2016
 
Resurrecting an incredibly old topic here on the Coffee Shop forum (I really ought to get out a bit more!), may I now offer you this clip, from QI?


Re: Box Tunnel at sunrise on Brunel's birthday (9 April) - merged topics, ongoing discussion
Posted by RobT at 12:07, 9th April 2017
 
Apparently the sunrise was not visible through the entire length of Box Tunnel today, Brunel's 211th birthday.
http://www.bathchronicle.co.uk/did-brunel-design-the-box-tunnel-so-that-the-light-would-shine-through-at-sunrise-on-his-birthday/story-30258983-detail/story.html

Re: Box Tunnel at sunrise on Brunel's birthday (9 April) - merged topics, ongoing discussion
Posted by Chris from Nailsea at 00:32, 10th April 2017
 
See also:


 [Image from here is not available to guests]


Re: Box Tunnel at sunrise on Brunel's birthday (9 April) - merged topics, ongoing discussion
Posted by grahame at 20:01, 10th April 2017
 
Story also at
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/apr/10/isambard-kingdom-brunel-birthday-box-tunnel-bath-sun

Which (as far as I can tell as I'm on an icky connection) looks far better.  Excellent sources recommend it, anyway!  [Image from here is not available to guests]

Re: Box Tunnel at sunrise on Brunel's birthday (9 April) - merged topics, ongoing discussion
Posted by TrainSpy at 20:11, 10th April 2017
 
Came across these pics - apparently from a stunt GWR did at the weekend. Wondered if anyone here had seen any more kicking around - can't seem to hunt any more down...

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/apr/10/isambard-kingdom-brunel-birthday-box-tunnel-bath-sun


Re: Box Tunnel at sunrise on Brunel's birthday (9 April) - merged topics, ongoing discussion
Posted by Bmblbzzz at 22:35, 10th April 2017
 
That Guardian article is not quite convincing. It's as if they really wanted to believe the legend but couldn't quite make the facts fit. They quote someone who was at the eastern portal saying that the sun was shining down the tunnel but they couldn't see how far. But the people at the western end weren't seeing the sun shine directly through the tunnel. Well, at the eastern end the sun is always going to be shining somewhat into the tunnel when it rises. If it was really aligned 'correctly' then you'd be able to see the sun rise from the western end too. Of course it's always possible Brunel aligned it with the setting sun, but they don't seem to have tested it in the evening.

Re: Box Tunnel at sunrise on Brunel's birthday (9 April) - merged topics, ongoing discussion
Posted by JayMac at 23:30, 10th April 2017
 
A pleasing coincidence, nothing more.

Brunel designed the tunnel using his engineering skills, his knowledge of geological conditions, the necessary alignment, and his tunneling experience. To suggest he chose the alignment to match sunrise on his birthday is just fanciful revisionism.

Re: Box Tunnel at sunrise on Brunel's birthday (9 April) - merged topics, ongoing discussion
Posted by Pb_devon at 08:28, 11th April 2017
 
Interesting PR activity by GWR:

https://www.gwr.com/about-us/media-centre/news/2017/april/gwr-proves-brunels-sunshine-theory-is-there-light-at-the-end-of-brunels-box-tunnel

I guess the wires will prevent that view in future, so an excellent opportunity taken.

Re: Box Tunnel at sunrise on Brunel's birthday (9 April) - merged topics, ongoing discussion
Posted by RobT at 10:02, 11th April 2017
 
Some impressive pictures from GWR's Facebook page:
https://www.facebook.com/gwruk/posts/10154346578721806

Re: Box Tunnel at sunrise on Brunel's birthday (9 April) - merged topics, ongoing discussion
Posted by Oxonhutch at 10:19, 11th April 2017
 
An interesting one. For an engineer of his age, I could well believe that he might have been tempted to assert his mathematical prowess if the deviation from the ideal was of little to no consequence to the final outcome.  Victorian engineering and art are rarely separated. The challenge for me though is to calculate the sun’s position at the crack of dawn on 9th April 1806 at the western mouth of Box Tunnel. I am sure it can be done – the ancients building Stonehenge apparently managed it!

I have checked on the SunCalc website and this year’s alignment did not add up.  I do not have enough nous though to vet their calculation. I couldn’t get it to give me a sun rise in 1806.

Figure 1: http://suncalc.net/#/51.4174,-2.2603,14/2017.04.09/09:27

The big question though is the distribution of leap years with the complication that 2000 was a leap year – normal centuries are not!
The distribution of the summer solstice from Wikipedia show this well and there will be a similar effect on the direction of the rising sun.
 
Figure 2: Modified after https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leap_year

As a geologist, I am aware that the Atlantic Ocean is up to 10 metres wider today than at Brunel’s birth and that the Greenwich Meridian has varied though time against WGS84. Further more, with Euler rotations of continental plates through time, even north itself is a variable feast.

Re: Box Tunnel at sunrise on Brunel's birthday (9 April) - merged topics, ongoing discussion
Posted by stuving at 20:25, 11th April 2017
 
Now, exactly what would you see if the light did get right through the tunnel? The sun's width is 0.53o (31'), and the tunnel is 2930 m long. I'm not sure of its width, but I've guessed at 8 m, so the far portal would appear as 0.15o wide. So those pictures of a little Sun framed in the portal were taken just a few steps into the tunnel - from the far end, you see a gleam that might be tunnel-shaped, certainly not roundly Sun-shaped.

I found an Excel workbook with the sums included as VBA, which seems to be pretty reliable. On the other hand, some of the numbers I've assumed have an distinct odour of damp finger about them. If you know better, do say.

First note that the azimuth of sunrise, however defined, moves at about 0.62o per day near the equinox. The calendar and varying synchronisation of the Earth's spin with sunrise moves the position over a total range of about 1.4o, but the formulas know about that. But that does mean that the just-risen Sun overlaps its position yesterday just a little, giving you a day's wiggle room.

Now the range of elevations at which you could see Sun down the tunnel is the gradient (-0.57o) plus the effect of refraction (-0.57o) and either the look-down from your eye height (-0.03o) and down half the Sun's width (-0.27o) or the height of the portal (+0.16o, based on 8 m) and up half the Sun's width (+0.27o) if you crouch right down: -1.44o to -0.71o. Refraction does vary a bit around that average value.

At an elevation within that range, the sun has to be at the right azimuth. I have that as 79.36o plus or minus the tunnel width (0.16o if you can move to the sides) and the Sun's width (0.27o): 78.94o to 79.78o.

This year, on the 9th, at -0.7o elevation the azimuth is 76.77o - out of sight. It is in the azimuth range at elevations of +1o or more - out of sight uptheway.

Wikipedia reports it did happen on April 5th in 1992:  I get it at 79.17o azimuth (pretty central) at -0.7o elevation, and going out of the side at -0.9o. That has a fair chance it would be visible.

Note that even a rough surface reflects much better than you'd expect if light falls on it at a very shallow angle. Being damp would also help a lot. So you might see a bit, even if the Sun is strictly out of sight. Of course if you'd never seen the "real" thing, you wouldn't know that wasn't it.

Re: Box Tunnel at sunrise on Brunel's birthday (9 April) - merged topics, ongoing discussion
Posted by JayMac at 21:01, 11th April 2017
 
Well, with those last two posts I've been blinded by the maths, rather than the sun!  [Image from here is not available to guests]

Re: Box Tunnel at sunrise on Brunel's birthday (9 April) - merged topics, ongoing discussion
Posted by Chris from Nailsea at 21:56, 11th April 2017
 
... whereas Brunel himself probably just scribbled his workings out on the back of a cigar packet ...  [Image from here is not available to guests] [Image from here is not available to guests] [Image from here is not available to guests]


Re: Box Tunnel at sunrise on Brunel's birthday (9 April) - merged topics, ongoing discussion
Posted by ChrisB at 10:01, 12th April 2017
 
Saw photos taken by Matthew Golton yesterday from the Eastern end at sunrise, and yes, light from it could be seen through the tunnel at the western end....was quite impressive

Re: Box Tunnel at sunrise on Brunel's birthday (9 April) - merged topics, ongoing discussion
Posted by Madinventor at 21:13, 23rd April 2018
 
Please can I add some information to your discussion
The sun will not shine through the IKB’s Box tunnel not on the 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th, 9th or 10th of April or the September equivalent not at the moment anyway.
Several things conspire to stop this from happening.
The 6.00am train from Bristol fills the tunnel with diesel fumes before sunrise, recent electrification might soon resolve this first problem.
The south embankment does cover a portion of the tunnel’s eastern portal, when viewed from the western side, it obstructs from the bottom left corner diagonally up at about 45° to the point where the roof curve meets the top of the right hand tunnel wall.
At the moment there is also very tall shrubs and trees on this embankment which blocks the rest of the tunnel’s alignment out completely.
So recent investigations by the GWR engineers in 2017 was always going to fail to prove this so called “myth” really works.
The next problem is the English morning weather, how many April days have zero cloud or mist between Bath and Reading at 06.30 am ?
I took a picture on the 9th of April 1982 of the sun shining down the tunnel or at least as good as it ever will on the 9th of April. This photo was the cover photo for the New Civil Engineers investigation 4th April 1984 p. 29 - 31
Why did I get a picture of the sun illuminating the tunnel brightly and the the reflection bouncing off all four rails, here is the reasons…
Recently before 1982 (don’t know the exact year) the eastern south embankment was cleared of all shrubbery and trees.
1982 was a Bank Holiday so there was no 06.00 am train out of Bristol, the best image was taken at about 06.44 am, in those days you were limited to 24 colour shots using a Practica SLR 35 camera.
It was the clearest night I ever saw when driving to Box, which I did from 1977 until 1985. After which I realised I would never see the sun shine through it again so stopped visiting the area.
Also it was different times when it comes to safety, annually up to 20 people would be on the tracks with genuine interest and so would GWR staff assisting us and allowing us to be there, after 1983 the rail staff were only there to keep us out of railway property.
By the way only me and a guy from Birmingham driving a 2CV were there on the 9th April in 1982.
I do believe that a better date is the 6th or 7th April (which all mathematical calculations confirm) and why I think this is,  there is a picture taken by Jim Barnes in 1985 a year where the shrubbery was still low on the east south embankment allowing you to see what is clearly the sun within the Eastern portal. If the 6.00 am train from Bristol had not filled the tunnel with fumes 10 minutes before he took that picture that would be the most stunning proof and I doubt if you would have been able to look up the tunnel at the sun with the naked eye without hurting your eyes. That sun is penetrating through 2 miles of confined diesel fumes.
So don’t rush off trying to see this phenomenon, not until the trees are cleared, 100% of trains are electric using the line or it has to be a Bank Holiday, you need one of the best clear nights prior to “the 6th or 7th of April” and permission from Network Rail or GWR, and a key to the Western access gate.
Sorry to disappoint you all and unless you are very very young now you have no chance of seeing IKB’s genius creation as intended, they will cut the trees again but not until they are big and old enough to cause a danger to the trains.

Regards   david@needhams.uk.com, Chesterfield

Re: Box Tunnel at sunrise on Brunel's birthday (9 April) - merged topics, ongoing discussion
Posted by Chris from Nailsea at 00:38, 25th April 2018
 
Wow!  [Image from here is not available to guests]

Thank you very much for that fascinating post, Madinventor - and may I offer you a very warm welcome to the Coffee Shop forum.

Are any of those pictures already available for us to view, anywhere on the internet - or are you possibly able to give us any links to them here?


Re: Box Tunnel at sunrise on Brunel's birthday (9 April) - merged topics, ongoing discussion
Posted by Madinventor at 21:57, 25th April 2018
 
Chris,
Thanks for the response and continued interest
I do need to make a couple of corrections,
Firstly, the New Civil Engineer investigation was the 4th April 1985 not 1984
Secondly, my photo was not the cover photo but the article photo on page 31
I looked for the photographs today, and failed to find them but I did find the negatives, herewith a link to a previous posting of my photograph
https://www.flickr.com/photos/28512889@N05/24777797845/
or put in to Google “David Needham Box Tunnel”
I do have a copy of the 4th April 1985 New Civil Engineer though posting it would and could infringe their copyright and I would need express permission from Metropolis International Ltd the current owners of the title.
Looking at the web photo which is nowhere near as clear as the actual Number 13 picture that was originally printed, it is today clear to me that the sun was close but not perfectly aligned on the 9th of April, it was just a very clear a day and a clean tunnel which makes my photograph definitely the best April the 9th picture and probably as good a picture as has ever been taken from the western end of the sun at the eastern end.
My view always was that if you can see the sky from the western end looking east at some point the sun’s travels across our sky must pass the point of the tunnel alignment.
Today's issue is the sky is not visible through the tunnel as per my previous post.

Box Tunnel, east of Bath, on the Great Western Main Line - moved topics, merged posts
Posted by Bmblbzzz at 14:02, 5th April 2020
 
For more than two centuries, railway enthusiasts, engineers and scientists have tried to solve the mystery of Box tunnel, near Bath.

They have combed the history books, done the maths and carried out practical experiments to try to work out whether its creator, Isambard Kingdom Brunel, really did design the two-mile tunnel so that the rising sun shone right through it on his birthday, 9 April.

But now a new theory has emerged from a retired engineer and physicist who has reassessed the science, had a fresh look at the Brunel family tree and concluded that in fact the great railway builder might have designed the tunnel so that the phenomenon occurred not on his birthday but on that of a little-known sister – 6 April.

Peter Maggs, who has been working on the puzzle for more than 30 years, said he had a “eureka moment” when he discovered that Brunel’s sister, Emma Joan, was born on 6 April.

Continues...
https://www.theguardian.com/culture/2020/apr/05/new-twist-in-mystery-of-brunels-birthday-sunrise

Re: Box Tunnel, east of Bath, on the Great Western Main Line - moved topics, merged posts
Posted by infoman at 16:13, 5th April 2020
 
Sunrise is 06:32am,could some one put a special from Bath to Chippenham about the same time.

Visibilty forecast is "very good"

Re: Box Tunnel, east of Bath, on the Great Western Main Line - moved topics, merged posts
Posted by smokey at 15:55, 10th April 2020
 
Beware of the light at the end of the Tunnel It could be a train coming! [Image from here is not available to guests]

Re: Box Tunnel, east of Bath, on the Great Western Main Line - moved topics, merged posts
Posted by Clan Line at 20:46, 10th April 2020
 
Beware of the light at the end of the Tunnel It could be a train coming! [Image from here is not available to guests]

Some years ago I went "wrong side" from Bathampton up to Thingley - I remember thinking then that the driver must have been hoping that the spot of light he could see in the distance was the tunnel mouth and not another train coming the other way !!

Re: Box Tunnel, east of Bath, on the Great Western Main Line - moved topics, merged posts
Posted by Chris from Nailsea at 16:58, 9th April 2025
 
For more than two centuries, railway enthusiasts, engineers and scientists have tried to solve the mystery of Box tunnel, near Bath.

Nonsense: Box Tunnel didn't open until June 1841.  [Image from here is not available to guests]


Box Tunnel portal at risk?
Posted by matth1j at 08:20, 6th November 2025
 
https://bathnewseum.com/2025/11/06/box-tunnel-blues/
The portal leading into Isambard Kingdom Brunel’s historic Grade 11* listed Box rail tunnel may be placed on Historic England’s Heritage at Risk Register.
:
It saddens me that such an important example of the railway history of this country, in particular when the country is celebrating 200 years of the Railway under Railway 200, is in such poor condition.

Re: Box Tunnel portal at risk?
Posted by Witham Bobby at 09:15, 6th November 2025
 
Vegetation seems to be a feature of much of the railway's masonry structures these days

Perhaps I'm old fashioned to beleive that keeping trees, shrubs and under/overgrowth under control is more cost effective than allowing them to reach a stage where they can be destructive

Re: Box Tunnel portal at risk?
Posted by Mark A at 09:52, 6th November 2025
 
It's not old fashioned. It's difficult for any vegetation that puts roots into structures to be other than bad news, it's something that brings avoidable expense as time passes. Ditto trees growing within a certain distance above a retaining wall. It's now rather more difficult to organise clearing the stuff alongside a live railway line but it should be part and parcel of maintaining the railway.

Mark

Re: Box Tunnel portal at risk?
Posted by grahame at 21:34, 24th January 2026
 
The main railway from London to Bristol passes briefly through a corner of the Melksham and Devizes constituency, including the west portal (the more famous one) of Box Tunnel.  Which is in what heck of a state.   Probably because I have transport links I've been asked if I can persuade Network Rail to move the repairs up from the autumn ...  following up here with an edited reply which is being shared around Box anyway, and documents the layout for the wider readership

Sadly, my immediate thoughts are that it would be a very tall order to get substantive repairs to the Box Tunnel(s?) portal(s) completed in time for 11th September - just 8 months away.  Where, perhaps, you might have a better chance to provide a celebration of 185 years would be to ask / work with Network Rail to provide a display to help inform attenders about the good work planned for the autumn.

At the risk of explaining things you already know (but feel free to share this with others who don’t have the railway involvement of you and I ) …

Network Rail plans things many years ahead - frustratingly so - and that includes infrastructure repairs.  There are elements of heritage concern in there, but balanced against that at present is a requirement for them to cut 2000 out of 40,000 jobs and at the same time re-organise into Great British Railways that takes over train operation too.  If it’s safe and trains can still reliably run, it probably won’t be a priority to try and move up a potentially major and highly specialised operation for completion in advance of repairs.

Great Western Railway is currently a First Group company contracted to operate trains, with income going to HMG and then money being payed to the company to run the trains as - err - cheaply as they can.   Come this Autumn, it is probable (almost certain) that GWR will be nationalised - the GWR name will remain, but the objective will not be to reach company goals, but to reach Department for Transport subsidiary goals.   Current GWR and First Group direction has no financial interest in developing public conception or future traffic - though the vast majority of the team ARE very interested in what they’ll be doing this time next year.

Box is in the Melksham and Devizes constituency - perhaps that’s a reason you ask me?  The London to Bristol (Great Western) main line passes through Box tunnel. 
* It enters the tunnel to the east in the Chippenham Constituency of Sarah Gibson, who a has strongly picked up the baton of the campaign for a new or re-opened station in Corsham,  and it might happen - some blockers have been removed.  Of anyone, [redacted], you know how long and hard fought this has been, and you know the nature of these things that for many years frustrations will occur but then it might - just might happen. 
* It leaves Box Tunnel through the western portal now in the Melksham Constituency of Brian Mathew. It passed under the A4, above Box Village past the site of Box Mill Lane Halt, and the passes through the second shorter tunnel at Box Middle Hill.  The site of Box Station follows (really in Ashley rather than Box) and then the railway runs along the valley past  Shockerwick
* It passses into the Bath constituency between Bathford and Batheaston before crossing the valley of the River Avon to Bathampton - no longer in Wiltshire and looked after by Wera Hobhouse.   Also a whole new larger authority / local transport authority, WE(M)CA rather than Wiltshire.

You would need to be quick (closes 2nd February) but the final CCIF (Customer and Community Infrastructure Fund) tranche from GWR could be woth an application.   It would be a very long shot - sadly, you don’t in Box have many rails customers.  There’s no station and the likely places for re-openings would be in Sarah’s or Wera’s constituencies;  I have seen the question of a station at Box (Ashley) raised but it quickly raised so many issues that in the current environment it’s a resounding “that won’t happen”.

I would - suggest - working with the Network Rail contacts the team already has planning the autumn repairs for a set of display boards to celebrate the tunnel and to look ahead to the works that would / will help preserve the heritage.   As I recall, the view to the tunnel mouth of the main tunnel is from the main road and there may be a safety issue there with a substantial number of visitors, and there ia park / picnic area (?) off to one side which is an element of an interpretation centre. Something to build on?  Vegetation clearance to get a better view - but is it nesting season?    I do recall walking over the top of Middle Hill tunnel - in fact I found a picture of it just the other day - and there is a nice and distant view form there and perhaps a somewhat safer alternative.

Re: Box Tunnel, east of Bath, on the Great Western Main Line - moved topics, merged posts
Posted by Chris from Nailsea at 22:03, 24th January 2026
 
I have taken something of a liberty in moving grahame's post above and merging it here with several others - all of them relating specifically to Box Tunnel.

CfN. [Image from here is not available to guests]


 
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