I recall taking a train at Manchester Piccadilly (hotel) to Stockport (where I was giving a course) ... and listening to the announcement of where it was going ... Bradford-on-Avon ... Waterloo.

 
Also an episode of fools and horse's was filmed at the station,

and direct HST's trains from London Waterloo non stop to Bath and Bristol and onto Cardiff in the 1990's.

 
Does anyone fancy being landlord to 7 new MPs within easy walking distance of the Palace of Westminster?

https://www.rightmove.co.uk/properties/147548858

 

In another context could be some the services to Weymouth you report.

 
Our mirror also has an article http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/mirror/FINAL-Parsons-Coffins-by-Train.pdf

Made the BBC - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-66507599

 
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-england-london-66155288

 

 Is this one of the disadvantages of having one large signalling centre ?

 
Major Power Signalling System Failure at Waterloo.  It was not a power related fault, its just when there is a wide area failure everyone jumps to the conclusion it must be a power supply issue.  In this instance it was to do with signalling equipment at a key point meant the signallers lost sight of a large area of control.

So not power related

 
All lines now showing as clear - opened at 10:45, UIUI.

 
The signal maps are showing the lines blocked as being all four of the SWML at Vauxhall, plus one of the Windsor lines further out. That leaves only two tracks usable through Queenstown Road, able to access the northern half of Waterloo.

There is a ladder crossing east of Clapham Junction that could allow trains to get to of from any track, but costing a lot in conflicts to use it. Having said that, currently* there is not a single train moving east of Clapham Junction. (*True at 10:40, but immediately after checking it several turned up.)

 
Latest from Network Rail on Twitter:

1015 update: we've identified the fault (which is in the cabling that powers the signals controlling the Waterloo area) - our team are now working on a plan to repair the issue. Our travel advice remains in place for now and we'll keep you updated as we get more info from site.

 

The Southern Regions power supplies are generally very robust, signalling power supply points have 2 supplies available from the NR internal high Voltage distribution network which can be feed from 2 or more DNO / TNO bulk supply points, in the London area a dedicated 400V DNO supply as a back up.  It's not usual to have generators because of the 3 sources of supply, generators are notoriously unreliable ie never work when you need them.

There are UPS on the power supply system these are designed and size to only cover the time it takes to change from supply to another, there are smaller ones to cover a local power outage but these are only to allow systems to transfer or shut down safely.

Like all power supply systems there are weak points which are designed out as far as posible but you can never achieve a 100%.  A small piece of equipment fire in a relay room for instance can have a major impact, this may be the relay room etc.

The power supply to signalling systems in large and complex

 
We had two topics with identical titles, barring one capital letter, started within minutes of each other so I have merged them.

 
Very poor planning if a single power failure can cause this scale of disruption.
What exactly has failed ? If the incoming supply from the DNO has failed, then network rail should have a functioning emergency generator to supply signalling and other critical loads.

If the incoming supply is functioning, and the fault lies in network rail internal infrastructure, then this should have been duplicated, with two supplies to critical loads, via different routes and preferably from different substations.

Presumably the DC traction supply is still available ? Did no one think of installing a backup supply to signalling, this being derived from the traction current supply.

And as a last resort, what about a hired generator ? These are available on short notice from Agreko, MEMs power and many others. They also hire cables and distribution equipment.

 
Only the Reading line platforms are available, all the others are completely closed

 
SWR have reported a major power failure affecting signalling at Waterloo, severely restricting the services.
Interestingly the WoE services to/from Exeter are terminating/starting at Wimbledon, rather than Basingstoke as is usual in times of disruption. Presumably this also allows the access to the District line for journeys into London.

 

From Network Rail Twitter:

We’ve suffered a major power failure to signalling equipment at @LondonWaterloo that means fewer than half the station platforms are usable by trains.
We are advising @SW_Help customers not to travel to or from Waterloo this morning as the disruption is severe.

Our team is on site tracing the fault, which occurred before 0400, but even if it is fixed soon disruption is likely across the network for some time.
Again - please do not travel into or out of Waterloo this morning.
We will update you when there is better news.

 

OK. It took me 2 minutes and 10 seconds to get to Brewdog from the National Windrush Monument on the concourse today. Still haven't been inside yet.

 

"The MOD has estimates there are 2 million armed forces veterans in the UK".  I understood at one point it might be possible for the other 58 million of us to stay there - not all at once, of course.

 

If I could make a little plug here ? Just over Waterloo Road is the Union Jack Club: Cheap beer (£2.90), excellent food, superb value accommodation and first class general surroundings. If you are an ex member of the UK armed forces (non-commissioned) it is well worth its annual membership fee, just for a couple of visits a year to break even.

https://ujc.org.uk/

 
Brewdog’s £7 a pint of beer-flavoured water is outrageous. When Spoons can do pints of real ale for £3.50’ish Brewdog’s greed is unacceptable.

 
Roll on when they get Sainsburys finished. They’ll beat M&S in prices hands down. Meanwhile am really pi$$ed off that both M&S and Pure refuse to take cash payments. What’s wrong with our British money?

 

I am going to retract this comment as I took another walk there last week and it didn't take anywhere near as long as I remembered the first time. I think the first time I also explored the lower level before I reached the entrance of Brewdog which probably explains why I thought it was a long walk.

This time I started from the National Windrush Monument on the concourse, pressed Start on the OutdoorActive app and walked to Brewdog and pressed End. The app tells me that this time I walked 0 metres. That's probably due to a lack of a GPS signal down there. It also tells me I walked less than a minute which also doesn't sound right. I'll try again next week using my phones stopwatch

 

Some of the photos in that article make me think of 20th century BBC science fiction spaceship interiors.

 


Now merged into this single thread

 
As per most 'new articles' others got there first.  Ian Visits wrote about this back on 4 October

 
Duplicate thread started in the SWR board

 
See Waterloo - the sidings thread for the same info

 
"There is an eerie silence in a shopping centre beneath London Waterloo, the station from which Eurostar trains once whisked people from the capital to mainland Europe."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/

 
I took a look a few weeks ago. It's a very long walk from the concourse to the Brewdog pub with only a handful of shops occupied in between. I wish I had used a stopwatch as when I got to Brewdog, I decided I then didn't have time to go in as I had to walk all the way back to the concourse and then walk from the twenty something platforms over to platform 1 to catch my train. The pubs outside the station are nearer.

Oh and I previously read somewhere that a pint in Brewdog is about £7. It's supposedly the largest bar in London and may be the only bar currently open in the station.

 
So it's a dead end with a bit of old stock in it?

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-63175951

 

I see the section about it being the last terminus to use steam is illustrated by a Bulleid Pacific. Note to sub-editors: this is incorrect, next time use a Class 91. 🙂

 
Until its demise in a German bombing raid in WWII, London Necropolis Company's trains to the cemetery at Brookwood ran from their own terminus just south of the main station, and whose post-war ruined remains can be seen here (The entrance - still there today - is at 121 Westminster Bridge Road). Trains bringing mourners back to London terminated at Waterloo itself.

 
After the closure of the old "news cinema" a moving message display board was installed at high level at the platform 1 end of the concourse.
The distinctive curved steel work for this was still in place until recently and might still exist.
This was long before the LED age, and the display contained thousands of small incandescent bulbs. It displayed news headlines, stock market prices and adverts.

Other trivia, the Duke of Wellington PH just outside the station was at one time operated by Travellers fare.

 
Hmm - item 9 "The name has been a sticking point"

It is said that when Winston Churchill was plannning his own funeral arrangements, he insisted that his funeral train would leave London from Waterloo, despite the insistence of railway managers that, as the eventual destination was to be Blenheim Palace and Bladon churchyard, Paddington would make much more sense. Churchill was adamant that the train should leave from Waterloo.

When  pressed even harder he said:

"If De Gaulle dies before me, it can leave from whatever damn station you like. But if I die before De Gaulle, it leaves from Waterloo"

 

 
from Get Surrey - a list of "11 unusual things about Waterloo station you probably didn’t know".  I am sufficiently sad, old and fully read to rarely be surprised by things in these lists - but in this case 4 were new to me ... so sharing in case there are some new to you too.

 
From London Evening Standard

 
There are suggestions elsewhere that they may well be available in emergency.  They were used during the 2017 blockade, so presumably (hopefully?) the track work and signalling is still functional.

Paul

 
As you say, they don't really need 23-24 yet, and would probably cost money to staff, clean and maintain those pair of platforms, probably easier to keep it under wraps until they plan on properly using them.

 
At the start of this work (and thread) the opening of the revamped international platforms was due this month (NR's web site still says they all will). And yesterday P21-22 did in fact open, though 23-24 are now not due to do so until next May. Given that the extra trains that rely on the extra platforms aren't yet running (and the date of that timetable change, like all of them, has a credibility problem), I guess that rates a small cheroot. 

What can they be still be doing to P23-24, with hardly any possession time? Perhaps not much, but they just put highest priority on opening something on time so this bit is not quite there yet.

 
Meanwhile over on Twitter
https://mobile.twitter.com/PaulCliftonBBC/status/1067078401842954241

 
Pleased to report signalling problem at Earley fixed in time for 18:26 ex Guildford (following two cancelled trains in the same direction) to gallop through from Wokingham to Reading without slowing, catching up from two minutes late from Guildford to 3 minutes 30 early at Reading - hopefully a sign of an end to recent travails on the North Downs Line.

 

More strops last night and again today

 
Sunday's main possession was all four lines from Waterloo to Hampton Court Junction, including a wide range of planned work. Whether the rail renewal that is reported to have gone wrong was part of that, or a short-notice addition, I don't know. It included some work inside Wimbledon Park Depot, though there were some movements in and out via the District Line. On paper, it ran 01:10 Sunday to 04:30 Monday.

On Sunday there was, as is now customary, a limited service with long-distance trains diverting at Weybridge via Virginia Water. The Weybridge service was removed to make room, with the long-distance trains calling instead at Addlestone and Chertsey, and Byfleet and New Haw standing in for Weybridge.

Clearly that service could be run without using any lines inside the possession. So why was no attempt made to do something similar on Monday? Well, one possible answer is a lack of drivers for those diverted routes - as many as possible being used on Sunday. Another issue is how to recover to a normal service once the possession does eventually end. An alternative of splitting the routes, probably at Woking, might be better. But "flexibility" seems to have vanished from corporate objectives across the whole rail industry, doesn't it?

The passengers with the biggest beef are those using (or who would have used) the Weybridge service - even with the line free of interlopers, that didn't run; at least, nothing (from Addlestone) between the 5:39 and the 10:02.

 
Luckily, I had the day off yesterday so didn't have to cope with the SWR morning problems. Unfortunately I had already decided to go to Brighton from Dorking Deepdene. Multiple delays and cancellations on GWR North Downs line due to a broken down train. 

 

 

 
I trust he means rails, not track.  If the track had to be replaced it would have been very drastic and certainly taken more than a week.....

 
Christian Wolmar on Twitter earlier today.

“Chaos at Waterloo today was caused by works to replace long sections of track which then proved to be faulty on testing and had to be relaid, along with tamper problems.”

 

What was the issue with NR staff unwilling to tamp that I've heard of elsewhere?

 
Point 4 appears to be the major problem - was that really necessary? Then Point 6 - what happened to the real [multi-tasking] railway workers?

 
Notwithstanding finding 152, I am surprised that not securing the points wasn't higher up in the list of errors.  If this had happened, then none of the subsequent events with test wiring etc. would have had any effect. The report appears to lean most heavily on the testers themselves - perhaps echoing shades of Clapham - but with a simple scotch and clip, they would have got away with it.

 
Simple sequence of events ……….. as I understand it.

• Defective rail need to be replaced, just routine work that had been planned in.
  Defective rails had been removed.
  RRV runs through a set of points in the wrong direction thus damaging the points, something that should not happen but sadly does.
  Whole team stood down for 3 hours for a safety brief /investigation
  Re-rail team informs NR that they will not complete intime
  At this time SWR Shunters had gone off shift, mainline drives do not have route knowledge for depots.
  

Melt down!!!!

 
Second report just published https://www.gov.uk/raib-reports/report-19-2018-collision-at-london-waterloo

If anybody here struggles to understand any of it then please ask away and I'll try to answer/clarify.

Quite damming of NRs competence management processes (after all the recent cases on the preserved railway network).

In particular I was really concerned about this statement:


My involvement in Clapham was reasonably close and I always related this tale to anybody new that worked for me. At the time I was Project Engineer for the Waterloo Area Resignalling (WARS) at ML Engineering (Plymouth) Ltd. We had the contract for the Resignalling.  We were in the middle of installation in Clapham Relay Room (the new one for WARS located in Victoria Signalling Centre, yes, I know). New lineside cables had been installed terminating on racks, and the link terminals fitted with RED DOME NUTS (those in the S&T industry will know what they do). BR had stagework wiring installed on the Righthand side of the terminations whilst we were installing the new interlocking wiring on the Lefthand side, with the connecting link obviously not fitted. BR then used the new cables to connect the new trackside equipment being installed in stages to the old Clapham signalbox interlocking. So, one fateful morning, siting in my office having my day starting cup of tea, the telephone rang and the person at the other end said "Hey, have you heard there's been a big accident at Clapham Junction, three trains involved and lots of people killed and injured?". You obviously can guess that my heart certainly sank to the floor and thoughts started flashing through my mind, crikey hope our staff haven't done anything. Started looking at the news reports on the TV and you can then imagine how my feelings progressed during the day.

Well, I suppose my point is, it becomes one of those defining moments in your career that you NEVER FORGET. I just hope we don't end up having a repeat of all that to make people understand and learn it all over again.

 
Waterloo was severely disrupted, not 'closed'

 

Do you mean the thread title? What's incorrect about it?

 

It's odd, isn't it? I guess they say that to make it sound as if these are a superior kind of technician, not the ordinary ones who know very little. But if it means anything in this kind of highly technical field, it means someone who has only been trained on a limited range of equipment, and can't be sent out to fix any fault anywhere. In other words, the equivalent of semi-skilled (but when did you last hear that used?) - after all the French equivalent of that is ouvrier specialisé (which you don't hear much these days either).

 

Correspondents here too.....The subject line is incorrect, as noted by posts above.

 
I was never called a 'SPECIALIST' signal technician in my time in the S&T.  Can't repeat here what I was called at times, though......

 
As of 10:16:

Despite the way the news has been presented, most Windsor Lines services were running, though with a few gaps due to missing stock. Reading trains were worse than that, most delayed and some missing, but that was our old friend "signalling at Earley" having a bit of a strop.

And then, a little to the east:

 
Whilst blame doesn't lie with SWR, they have to handle the fallout. And it looks like they're not doing a very good job communicating.

Sadly it appears to be another example of FirstGroup's Maxwell touch. Thats the polar opposite of the Midas touch. Named after Robert Maxwell - everything he touched turning to s***.

 
Another day of shockingly poor service for SWR’s customers.

 
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-46258720

At least Filton bank opened on time

 
I did wonder if it was a shortcut to anywhere; I remember going to the IMAX a long time ago.

I like using exit 4 to Tennison Way and doubling back into The Hole in The Wall ;-).

 
Narnia?

 

I think so, on the grounds there is such a subway and it seems likely this is its end. I found that in a Lambeth proposal from 2011 to close this part of the subway, making Waterloo Place more friendly to pedestrians.

 
Isn’t this one of the routes to the IMAX cinema on the roundabout?

Paul

 

The sign on it says "Lift to Subway". Do you mean where does the subway go?

 
There's a lift outside the Waterloo station 'arch' exit (exit 5, if you will). Where does it go?

 

...err.  We discussed the interim report in this thread from post #58 onwards.....

 

I see low ticket sales for the service on that day. On the upside, a good one to short form!

 
I agree, very worrying that they know an incident will occur in Cardiff in 88 years time.

 

Appears RAIB have produced their  Interim Report.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5a3bc2b8ed915d61889d9b4e/IR022017_171220_Waterloo.pdf

Roger Ford has a summary in Febs Modern Railway.

Appears a Test Strap was left in place and the relevant points not clipped. He says similar to Cardiff incident in 2106 when a decommissioned set of points was not clipped.

Very worrying.

 

Like SandTEngineer I am surprised that a test strap and points were left unclipped; whilst there is much ribbing of S & T by E & P one thing I do know from experience of working with S & T  testing teams is their attention to detail, being methodical and not being concerned if they tell the powers that be "we ain't finish testing yet"

 
Yup. The number of wires landed on each terminal is in the plan.

Part of our [on my heritage railway] S+T sign-off, is confirming that each terminal has the correct wire count. Sounded anal to me the first time I had to do it, but this accident reinforces why it is so necessary.

 
One of the basic principles of signalling testing is that all Test Straps are individually numbered.  When you fit them you ‘count them all out and then count them all back in again’ to make sure one doesn’t get accidentally left in place.  If a ‘strap’ is required to be left into place after commissioning then it should be made permanent and designed/checked/approved within well documented procedures and standards.

Lets wait and see what the continuing RAIB investigation throws up.......

 
Correct.

 

Ok ta.   Goes back to that '4 state' truth table we discussed earlier doesn't it.

Paul

 
Paul,  if you look at Figure 2 in the report you will see that it is 1525AB points that direct trains into/out of Platforms 12/13/14/15.  1524ABC points are only required normal for those movements.

 

Through Points 1525A which were free to move independently of points 1524A or B.  Points 1525B were also free to move but were located on a locked-out route.

 
With points 1524A and 1524B (and 1524C) all clipped normal, how would they achieve a route into P13/14?

Am I missing something obvious here?   Or did I misread something earlier that implied that 1524 and 1525 operated together?

Paul

 

10 out of 10 for that summary.  As a practicing signal engineer for nearly 50 years now, I am bitterly disappointed to have to read that the lessons learnt from the Clapham accident have not been followed through.  I know that the pressure to complete things to time is greater than ever, but when safety of the travelling public is concerned, we need to remember not to be frightend and to stand up when required and say NO.

 
Along with the incident at Cardiff, these are gentle reminders to NR and it’s contractors that although the recent safety record is incredibly good, a major incident could still easily happen if safety procedures are allowed to slip.

 
Primarily points 1524A and 1524B should have been clipped in their normal position (as per plan) but were not.

Secondarily, a test wire was left connected which shorted out the electrical detectors to 1524A&B and fooled the signalling system into believing the point blades were correctly set and locked normal.

If only one of the above had happened the accident would not have occurred - it required the combination of the two. Holes in the cheese.

Had unclipped point blades moved without the testing wire being present, detection would have been lost and the starting signal would not have cleared.

 
RAIB interim report.  I'm no expert - it is as expected all to do with stage works and testing, is very detailed and I'm hoping someone can follow it through and come up with a short precise.  Seems the point ends the train approached were physically 'mid position' as seen from the FFCCTV.

As was postulated in various forums at the time, the driver and signallers cannot be considered responsible in any way.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/669469/IR022017_171220_Waterloo.pdf

Paul

 
Roger Ford's monthly preview of his next Modern Railways article again quotes an unnamed source who says that the points simply "should have been clipped" so I still await the RAIB detailed explanation.   

Paul

 

Because if clipped to straight through i.e. "NN" there would have been no access to P13?

Paul

 

I have tried to explain it in 'simple' non-technical terms but a double slip is probably the most complex set of points that exist so......

I have decided that I need to do you a drawing.  Watch this space 

 

Its not for us to speculate why.  Its for RAIB to determine that.

 
Still doesn't answer why weren't the points clipped N N. If RN and RR would cause a collison

 
Well, I'm glad to see that you two apparently understand it ... 

 

Correct again (I'll make a signal engineer out of you yet ).  In the incident the train was signalled through the points concerned NN, but they were actually set RN.  On clamplock operated double slips each end of a pair is individually driven by separate hydraulic rams but they are connected to the same single electro-hydraulic pump unit so 2 per double slip arrangement (there is a design version that has 2 separate electro-hydraulic pump units per pair - 4 in total for a set of double slips; but for reasons of economy in design, installation and ongoing maintenance, that configuration is rarely used).

 
Thanks.   In the conversation about four positions, of course what we a looking at is analogous to a binary truth table, where Normal and Reverse are the equivalent of 0 and 1.  So two 'mechanisms' each with 2 conditions gives you four results?

N N
N R
R N
R R

...sort of thing?

Paul

 

Paul, still trying to find my drawings.  Might have to sketch it out myself......but have found a basic animation here: http://www.dccwiki.com/images/2/2f/CrossingDoubleSlip.gif

You are correct about the panel presentation and the fact the points concerned are Clamplock operated.

 

Did you manage to find a drawing?  I'm thinking the signalling panel engraved lines means something the way they are drawn, presumably they show the default straight route (i.e. P11 left <> DMR right) with everything set normal?

I had a quick glance at the hardware from a passing train and it looks like these are "clamp lock" operation, does that affect how the pairs are linked/operated?

Paul

 

There are no long term plans to run SE Trains into Waterloo, once this Christmas is over he temporary electrification infrastructure put in place to enable the use of lindford St curve gets removed; indeed there is no capacity at Waterloo for SE Trains.

The reason it was decided to run SE Trains into Waterloo was for the benefit of passengers from Kent that normally use Waterloo East and Charing Cross.   There is no added capacity at Blackfriars currently a number of services are not running into Blackfriars during the London Bridge rebuild, the same as Thameslink services are not running via London Bridge, in fact the TLP trains via Loughborough Jcn and Herne Hill are taking the paths of the Blackfriars terminators, in the 2018 full opening of London Bridge there will be reinstatement of Blackfriars terminators.
   

 

P21 and P22 was planned for SE.  I think what has been happening is that if disruption to the wider SWR service is forecast, then they are being pre-emptively diverted to Blackfriars. Lose access to a main line (whether DMF, UMF, UMR) in the station throat and the knock on effects ripple across the other 5 lines.

The fact that Blackfriars appears to have spare capacity to take that 2 tph service anyway is intriguing, it is as if the four days planned at Waterloo was only being done to create a precedent for future use?

There seems to be a greater emphasis on normal "run of the mill" random faults at the moment.   AIUI no recent modifications were made to the platform lines on the Windsor side and in the middle of the array of platforms used by main fast trains.  It stands to reason that there will be a minor fault every few days or weeks, it has always been so.

Paul

 
Back to normal ... and today's normal is:

The Twitter timeline shows that it only took 10 minutes from problem to all lines open, or rather it looks like platform 8 is not being used. Much the same happened earlier and took longer and led to a couple of trains being part cancelled.

There were also cancellations announced by SWR to SE services, which sounds odd. They are borrowing a platform (21, currently) for a week, accessed via the Nine Elms Flyover, or in other words by playing at being Eurostars.

 
BBC South Today just now were reporting that the low-numbered platforms (not sure how many) will close again tonight, for more fixing. There was talk about people being unaware of their last train being cancelled.

This is on SWR's site, though not in all the obvious places:

So that looks like a case of having to take an alternative train and change - the question is whether in any cases the Waterloo departure is earlier.

 

Ah - so it is linkage (mechanical or not), but not what I said. After all, even if two routes can be set through that crossing at once, only one can be signalled - so there's no need to bother about their compatibility. It's more like linking the two ends of a crossover, and extending that to a third point end that can't usefully be moved independently.

And then trying to quickly alter it temporarily.