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ChrisB
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« Reply #45 on: November 23, 2011, 11:38:15 » |
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There's also a 2+7 that's being canibalised for coaches - so another 5 are available. Reduce the 6 above to 5, then use these 5 cannibalised coaches & hey presto - they're *all* 8 coaches. Some with proper buffets, some with the cafe.
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vacman
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« Reply #46 on: November 23, 2011, 11:44:18 » |
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If they are using the prototype units on the bsk service they could easily add first class if deemed worth it to do so
I'm sure I read that the units are too be refurbished before they are put into service so maybe they are putting FC‡ into them? |
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IndustryInsider
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« Reply #48 on: November 23, 2011, 11:53:46 » |
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There's also a 2+7 that's being canibalised for coaches - so another 5 are available. Reduce the 6 above to 5, then use these 5 cannibalised coaches & hey presto - they're *all* 8 coaches. Some with proper buffets, some with the cafe.
Ah, yes - good point. I'd forgotten about the cannibalised set. Thanks. |
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To view my GWML▸ Electrification cab video 'before and after' video comparison, as well as other videos of the new layout at Reading and 'before and after' comparisons of the Cotswold Line Redoubling scheme, see: http://www.dailymotion.com/user/IndustryInsider/ |
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Tim
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« Reply #49 on: November 23, 2011, 12:00:57 » |
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just dareing to return to the finacials. I understand that in the last few months of the franchise FGW▸ would not be willing to pay for these extra coaches/units themselves (which begs the Wolmer question- "what are franchises for?").
We have to remember though that as far as the HST▸ 's are concerned it was FGW which removed the 8th coach from many of them. If the system was set up to do something other than screw over the tax-payer, by rights that move should have resulted in tens of millions of pounds flowing the other way from FGW to the Dft. I bet it didn't.
can anyone reasure me that FGW were not allowed to shorten their HST, pocket the savings from that and then get the tax-payer to pay for lengthening them again. Either that happened which is disgraceful or it didn't happen quite like that cos the whole situtaion is much more complicated and shouded in mystry which is hardly a recipt for value for money either.
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ChrisB
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« Reply #50 on: November 23, 2011, 12:14:19 » |
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We have to remember though that as far as the HST▸ 's are concerned it was FGW▸ which removed the 8th coach from many of them. If the system was set up to do something other than screw over the tax-payer, by rights that move should have resulted in tens of millions of pounds flowing the other way from FGW to the Dft. I bet it didn't. Aaahhh. now if I remember correctly, the removal of the 8th car was part of the bid accepted by the DfT» as part of the franchise win. The DfT agreed that they weren't needed for the expected passenger loadings - and of course it saved fuel, not having to pull a tonne of coach around.... so the cost of doing this was part of the franchise agreement. Might explain why the Govt are paying to put them back?.... |
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paul7575
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« Reply #51 on: November 23, 2011, 12:19:36 » |
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I think the two completely different reasons for there being 8 spare 150 carriages were being lost in translation and wrongly combined. The 2 x 150/0 3 car prototypes were originally to go off lease because they have relatively 'non-standard' underfloor equipment; the remaining two orphaned carriages couldn't be operated together as a normal 150/2 only because they would have no toilet. Paul |
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paul7575
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« Reply #52 on: November 23, 2011, 12:33:59 » |
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Aaahhh. now if I remember correctly, the removal of the 8th car was part of the bid accepted by the DfT» as part of the franchise win. The DfT agreed that they weren't needed for the expected passenger loadings - and of course it saved fuel, not having to pull a tonne of coach around....
Wasn't the thought process something like the original first class buffet's seating was pretty much wasted space, as was the massive amount of catering space, so there was a suggestion to turn them round and fit them with standard seating. But they then discovered that the same amount of standard class seating could be obtained anyway by raising the seating capacity in the rest of the standard class coaches? I also think that at the time it was done there was a belief that the 2 + 7 set's running times could be accelerated - I doubt that ever happened though, because as usual it would be impossible to make sure the sets were diagrammed properly... |
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ChrisB
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« Reply #53 on: November 23, 2011, 12:36:51 » |
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summat like that....
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IndustryInsider
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« Reply #54 on: November 23, 2011, 12:39:37 » |
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I also think that at the time it was done there was a belief that the 2 + 7 set's running times could be accelerated - I doubt that ever happened though, because as usual it would be impossible to make sure the sets were diagrammed properly...
Yes, it was one of the more incredulous quotes from the Alison Forster era that by removing a buffet vehicle, you'd magically save five minutes on a trip from London to Bristol. Incredulous not only because it would be difficult to ensure the sets were diagrammed properly, but also the relative performance on each individual sets power cars vary so much that you will still find some 2+8 sets that actually accelerate quicker than a 2+7 set. |
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To view my GWML▸ Electrification cab video 'before and after' video comparison, as well as other videos of the new layout at Reading and 'before and after' comparisons of the Cotswold Line Redoubling scheme, see: http://www.dailymotion.com/user/IndustryInsider/ |
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JayMac
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« Reply #55 on: November 23, 2011, 13:48:38 » |
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Can anyone confirm how many 2+7 sets will still be in operation after the 15 vehicles have been added to make all the rest 2+8's? If my calculations are correct I think it's only going to be four or five?
Whilst not mentioned in the DfT» press release, what about the loco-hauled Mk3 TSO▸ and the three TGSs that were also slated for conversion to TSHD? These were listed in the tender First Greater Western issued back in April. http://www.publictenders.net/tender/100424Are these 4 carriages still up for inclusion in the conversion programme? If so then that brings the number of additional Mk3 vehicles to 19. Just the amount needed to see all diagrams currently 2+7 increased to 2+8. |
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"A clear conscience laughs at a false accusation."
"Treat everyone the same until you find out they're an idiot."
"Moral indignation is a technique used to endow the idiot with dignity."
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paul7575
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« Reply #56 on: November 23, 2011, 13:53:29 » |
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Tenders nearly always ask for a wider range of numbers than eventually needed, the options listed could simply have been there to tease out different costs for the different source vehicles.
Anyway, they clearly include the phrase "This shall include some or all of the following..."
IIRC▸ we discussed this at the time the tender was news, when wondering why they were calling for 'up to 6' 180s, when it was perfectly obvious they would only had 5 to play with...
Paul
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JayMac
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« Reply #57 on: November 23, 2011, 14:38:49 » |
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Looking at what passenger stock FGW▸ have on-lease spare on a daily basis currently, I've counted:
-8 Trailer Standards (Coach B, D or E)
-1 Trailer Standard (Volo TV Coach D)
-2 Trailer Standard Disabled (Coach C)
-1 Trailer Standard Micro Buffet, (Coach F Std)
-5 Trailer Guard Standards (Coach A)
-4 Trailer Restaurant First Buffets (Coach F 1st)
-1 Trailer First (Coach H)
That is spare and not in regular use.
I believe that also, aside from the 48 sets needed on weekdays, there are 2 further sets, one at Old Oak and one at Laira, that are 'hot spares' ready to go should a diagrammed set fail, or to cover routine maintenance.
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"A clear conscience laughs at a false accusation."
"Treat everyone the same until you find out they're an idiot."
"Moral indignation is a technique used to endow the idiot with dignity."
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dog box
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« Reply #58 on: November 24, 2011, 10:11:35 » |
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slightly misleading bignosemac as you haven mentioned any Vehicles which are on heavy maintainence, out of what you have said its pretty sure that you could count on one hand the vehicles which are avalible for use and not being utilised.
There are probably a few TGS Vehicles and not a lot else
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All postings reflect my own personal views and opinions and are not intended to be, nor should be taken as official statements of first great western or first group policy
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JayMac
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« Reply #59 on: November 24, 2011, 11:14:46 » |
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I should clarify that I got those figures from published fleet lists. Just got me 2012 Coaching Stock book and cross referenced that with two other sources online. The 'spares' I identified are all listed as either OCSPARE or LASPARE rather than having a depot set/rake number.
Now obviously I can only go by info from public sources. That may well be wrong. These spares will no doubt be used (if serviceable) to cover maintenance and I wasn't suggesting that FGW▸ have any current spare capacity in their HST▸ fleet just because they have these unused carriages at Old Oak and Laira. They couldn't even make another rake with what they have got - no spare Trailer First Disabled!
Just added the numbers to show others whats out there.
119 HST power cars. A bit more wriggle room when it comes to those.
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"A clear conscience laughs at a false accusation."
"Treat everyone the same until you find out they're an idiot."
"Moral indignation is a technique used to endow the idiot with dignity."
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