Labelling seats as reserved after they have been occupied?

[whole diary]

[grahame]

This may happen every day ... but it was a new one on me last night. 

Scene - Paddington. 
Time - about 10 to 8 or perhaps a couple of minutes later.   

20:00 Bristol switches from "being prepared" to "platform 3" and the crowds rush. Usual "survival of the fittest" stuff but, wonder of wonders, some unreserved seats and I stowed my awkward bag in the luggage rack and started to settle ..

And only THEN did a couple of rail chaps come though, labelling seats and asking people to move.  "Where to"  I asked. "There may be some reserved seats in coach E" ... well, perhaps there were, but by the time I got to the end of the coach I was in, I got stuck in the Concertina where I remained all the way to Didcot ...

A story.  A comment - "surely it's not supposed to be done like this".  And an invitation for folks to comment.

[bobm]

Given the number of unclaimed reserved seats I regularly see on services out of Paddington it might have been better if those labelling the seats had suggested people move if someone comes to claim them.  For a start it is less confrontational and secondly it would stop a mini rush to Coach E or wherever the "currently" unreserved seats are.

[Btline]

Surely seat reserations should not be put out if passengers have already boarded. They should have been put out whilst the train was "being prepared". If there wasn't enough time, then they should announced - reservations axed.

[inspector_blakey]

Assuming there was a good reason for the labels being placed at the last minute (late arrival of the set from Old Oak for example, rather than the staff tagging the seats pushing their luck with an extended coffee break) then it's Catch 22 for FGW^▸ (First Great Western). Either incur the wrath of people at Paddington who have to move to a non-reserved seat, or incur the wrath of all the passengers with reservations throughout the journey when they're not provided. Taking a purely utilitarian perspective, I suspect the option that minimizes overall inconvenience is to set out the reservations despite some passengers having to shift around at the start of the journey. That said, on a busy train my response would probably have been to stay put and chance it on the assumption that the reservation wouldn't be claimed, but be prepared to move immediately if the ticket holder did actually appear.

[IndustryInsider]

It probably doesn't happen every day, but certainly isn't unheard of.  Probably caused by a late incoming arrival and the pressure for an 'on time' departure at all costs, which all the TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company)'s are increasingly obsessed about, or, less likely (but possible) a breakdown in communication between the station control and those on the ground doing the train preparation.

As an aside, I've noticed that the XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) Voyager scrolling reservation displays now show a static 'Seat Available' message when unreserved rather than the former scrolling 'This seat is not reserved' which took forever to display.  A big improvement.

[6 OF 2 redundant adjunct of unimatrix 01]

Xc offer reservations 20 mins before travel

[paul7575]

XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise))'s system where you can reserve just before travel only applies to a handful of specific seats per train, and they are marked differently, something like 'this seat may become reserved', can't remember exactly what it shows.

Paul

[readytostart]

Reservations are an absolute nightmare for on board staff, even when a train has been correctly labelled (or the electronic displays are working correctly).
Passengers will always sit in seats reserved by someone else (either currently or further down the line) despite being told (if one is available) where the unreserved coach is. Booked passenger comes along, sees someone in their seat, doesn't say anything and sits elsewhere, original passenger thinks this is great as no one has come along so their seat is now good for them. Third passenger comes along, tells second passenger to move out of their seat, this passenger now decides they want their booked seat as the train is rather busy and you get a right kerfuffle. Add to this the amount of times someone will come up to you and say 'someone is sat in my seat' and when you ask whether they have pointed this out to the person in the seat the response is a 'no'!

IndustryInsider is correct regarding the Voyager reservation screens being updated though to my knowledge it's currently only on set 221125. Moving towards the Pendolino method:
Reserved / Available / Reserved from xxx
Though annoyingly if a seat is currently reserved it wont tell you where to.

Makes it a little easier on the Train Manager if the set is slow to download reservations as you can manually program all screens to show reserved (and seats in coach B as Available) until you've got it sorted.

[eightf48544]

On vomiters aren't the reservations  lights above the seats not tags and whoever does reservations just has to plug some kind of handheld device into the train to download the reservations. Provide the computer works of course.

Works well on the DB^» (Deutsche Bahn - German State Railway - about) ICEs, if I remember correctly the reservations go out after each starting stop is passed. Thus you might have seat Koln Hanover which will go out after leaving Koln so if not occupied it would be available from say Wuppertal. You can also have at least 2 reservations for part journerys.  

[readytostart]

On vomiters aren't the reservations  lights above the seats not tags and whoever does reservations just has to plug some kind of handheld device into the train to download the reservations. Provide the computer works of course.

Works well on the DB^» (Deutsche Bahn - German State Railway - about) ICEs, if I remember correctly the reservations go out after each starting stop is passed. Thus you might have seat Koln Hanover which will go out after leaving Koln so if not occupied it would be available from say Wuppertal. You can also have at least 2 reservations for part journerys.  

The coach letters and reservations are downloaded by the T(rain)M(anagement)S(ystem) using pretty old technology, I think we're talking a 56k modem. The reservations are then allocated to the correct coach and displayed on the screens, unfortunately there are several things that can interfere with the process! The train could be in an area of very poor signal (Bournemouth station springs to mind), modems can refuse to dial, once you have the reservations down to the train the screens can refuse to work, you can also get an incomplete download meaning you have to start again - this can take a while to discover if you don't check every reservation against the guard's report. All of these problems have different solutions (or attempted solution that confirm the system really is goosed)! Most reservation issues that haven't been solved by the train manager will need attention at Central Rivers, whenever the set is next diagrammed in, rather than a priority.
We do have a system now where reservations can be downloaded to avantix and printed off on ticket stock on a seat by seat basis and traditional labels can be ordered from our station teams at Edinburgh and Birmingham.
Each seat on a Voyager can be booked up to four times in one journey, this I believe is the maximum allowed in NRS (it's the amount that can be fitted onto a traditional reservation label).

[grahame]

Yes ... the electronic system (as per XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise))) is potentially far better at turn around and I can certainly appreciate that the Paddington team were between a rock and a hard place - but as noted above, I appreciate that's not perfect.   I'm not sure how long the train had been there - it had certainly been sitting at the platform without any apparent action for about 15 minutes before the boards told us that it was going to Bristol.

Btline - Yes - I HAVE had trains in the past which have had reservations removed on them - "due to the late running of the previous service this train operated, there was no time to put reservations out" - I have paraphrased, I know.  That's why I was so surprised to see a different approach being taken at Paddington. Inspector_blakey - your suggestion about staying put was probably what I would have done had I been thinking totally straight but - gosh - I actually wasn't well and really just wanted to find somewhere to curl up in the corner and sleep, rather than get into a discussion about staying put and hoping with the chap who was retrospectively putting out the labels.

[Btline]

I personally think that axing seat reservations is a better course of action than putting them out as passengers board.

But I appreciate both sides. I think electronic ones should be the future - if they're reliable.

[thetrout]

On Spanish Intercity Services, when you book a Train, for example: Madrid Charmartin - Murcia, you are given a seat reservation which you HAVE to sit in!

If you are found by the train manager to be sat in another seat, they will move you! This is because the seat may (or may not) be reserved from a station further up the line (Madrid Atocha for example on this particular service). When I recently travelled on this service, I saw an English couple who had simply arrived at the station and paid 80 odd euros each for Preferente (Spanish First Class) tickets only to discover they weren't sat together. They were fuming! They decided to take 2 seats together behind me. Unfortunately a Spanish lady arrived to claim that seat at Atocha, and a lengthy debate of pure ignorance by using "No Comprende" didn't go down too well when the train manager arrived!

But what I do say is great at the Spanish Intercity trains, once all the seats are reserved, you can't travel on that train. Even the website will show a "Train Full" message and you cannot book that train! Great because you always get a seat!

The local trains on the other hand.................

[inspector_blakey]

The "fully reserved" policy is a double-edged sword, of course. One the one hand, everyone gets a seat. On the other, it means that the operator is free to adopt airline-style "yield management" in their pricing, selling seats at progressively higher prices as a train fills up. Amtrak uses a similar system (although without assigned seats) on the Northeast Corridor, where trains are "all reserved" such that everyone is guaranteed a seat. If you know your travel plans weeks ahead of time, you can travel at a fair price. However, book only a week or so ahead and it can be very expensive, not to mention that "walk-up" travel ends up prohibitively expensive. A couple of years ago I found myself in Trenton wanting to get back to Philadelphia - a local stopping train was leaving in about 45 minutes and cost $7.00. There were a couple of Amtrak trains scheduled in the interim which would have got me back earlier, but Amtrak wanted $70.00. Not an especially tough decision in the circumstances.

On balance I prefer the option of flexible, affordable walk-up travel and taking my chances finding a seat.

[thetrout]

This is very true... But my experience with Spanish Fully Reserved trains hasn't been too bad in all honesty.

Whilst I was in Lorca visiting my Grandfather a couple of weeks back I smashed the screen on my iPhone whilst getting out of his car So I looked up the nearest Apple Store hoping there would be one in Murcia, Almeria or Alicante. It was at this point I discovered that Spain only has 3 Apple Stores. 2 in Madrid and 1 in Barcelona.

I looked up trains to both Madrid and Barcelona and worked out it was just about possible to get to the Apple Store and make it back for late afternoon train.

As I can't be without my iPhone for work purposes (I use it to control computers and servers that I manage for my clients). It was worth writing off a whole day so I could travel to Madrid and back to get it fixed. I looked on the Renfe booking system and ended up paying ^100 for a First Class return from Lorca to Madrid, which is a journey of over 400 miles. Now personally, I think that's pretty reasonable. Yes in hindsight, I could have got it cheaper if i'd have booked 7+ days in advance and got 30% - 60% off with a Estrella or Web Fare, But I didn't know I was going to break my phone , I could have gone Standard Class, but it was about ^40 difference and trust me, it's worth it for the extra leg room when you're sat on that train for 5 hours!

However, I quite often find when I book the trains from Madrid that the 16:30 Madrid Charmartin - Murcia train even when booked a month in advance never seems to have Estrella or Web fares. So you end up paying the walkup fare anyway. The other option which extends the journey by 52 minutes is book the 16:20 Alvia train from Madrid Atocha to Alicante and pick up a Talgo train from there, as this train normally does have Web and Estrella fares.

I'll stop there as now I think I have completely hijacked this thread and taken it to Timbuctoo I think my partner is going to be having words with me soon if I start developing extended knowledge of the Spanish Railway Ticketing System as well as the UK^▸ (United Kingdom) one..............