Chiltern Evergreen 3 project - ongoing discussion

[whole diary]

[ChrisB]

I suspect the HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train) won't run that route.  Pax will just be directed onto the Chiltern trains. Some will, of course, already be choosing to route that way once services arecrunning

[Electric train]

I suspect the HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train) won't run that route.  Pax will just be directed onto the Chiltern trains. Some will, of course, already be choosing to route that way once services arecrunning

And when the main GW^▸ (Great Western) route is IEP^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project.)'d they will run out of juice as there are currently no plans to extend the sparks effect on the Chiltern Line

[ChrisB]

Sort of being mentioned for CP (Control Period) 6

[paul7575]

I think perhaps the point made was more to do with the use as a diversionary route such as those needed when Reading was blocked last Easter, or at Christmas 2010.

But as it turns out, despite this diversionary potential being referred to in Chiltern's original PR^▸ (Public Relations) as likely to be useful in the event of GW^▸ (Great Western) rebuild disruption:

The new route will bring a wide variety of benefits, including:
[...]
An alternative to the existing route during disruption whilst Reading station is remodelled and the CrossRail project is built.

...I suspect most of the GW upheaval, at least between Paddington and Reading, is now due for completion before EG3...

Paul

[4064ReadingAbbey]

Why do you think that? During, for example, the Reading blockade some trains from South Wales and Bristol were diverted via Banbury so that the passengers did not have to be bustituted and could be carried through to Paddington in the same vehicle albeit at the price of extended journey times.

Forcing the passengers to change trains is not 'user friendly' and goes against the stated policy of both Network Rail and the TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) to try to reduce the maximum inconvenience caused - because of the need to change vehicles it is only slightly better than 'bustitution'.

The other reasons I see against transhipping passengers are that the layout at Oxford is not conducive for train to train transfers in the eastbound direction at least; as far as I know the bay platforms to be used by the Chiltern trains will, in the first instance at least, be limited to 4 or 5 coach long trains so getting an HST^▸ (High Speed Train) trainload of passengers into will be cosy at best and the trains will terminate at Marylebone rather than Paddington. At least the reversal at Banbury meant that the trains started from and reached the terminus expected by the passengers.

However, because the Water Eaton to Bicester section will not be open until 2015 it is unlikely to be used as a diversion in the short term. However it will be available after then and could be helpful for the latter stages of the GW^▸ (Great Western) electrification and certainly afterwards if serious maintenance or repair is needed on any of the assets between Didcot and London. Bridges will still need to be replaced and track replaced even after electrification.

[paul7575]

If that's aimed at me, I was trying to agree that it could be used as a diversion in the event of a Reading style blockade, with the caveat that it's basically too late.  Discussions I've had with project staff at Reading suggest that it is likely that there'll only be one or two more similar closures, and they will be comparatively short, i.e. single long weekends.

Bridge replacement is comparatively rare, most of the recent and immediate future work on overbridges is for electrification, and is going to be finished by 2015.  Track replacement has been undertaken routinely for many years without full closure of all four lines, so it wouldn't need to start now just because they can divert via the Chilterns.

Paul

[ChrisB]

Is the new embankment being built to W10 standards?

There'll be a short window twixt the whole route to Oxford being open and EastWest opening - 3 years maybe? Yes, assuming the route can take HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train), if there is a blockade (nothing planned in long-term plan yet) - But 2 Chilterns, at least 2 EastWest and a freight path mean putting anything else up there will be tight....

[4064ReadingAbbey]

Not directly! The comment was made as a response to the post by ChrisB but somehow I got it out of sequence. Nevertheless, I think we are in grave danger of agreeing! The point I was trying to make was that improving the capacity and number of alternative routes for the GW^▸ (Great Western) has to be a 'good thing' in that it improves the networks resilience to disruption. A similar project currently underway is the re-doubling of the Swindon to Kemble stretch. Because of the arrangement of the GW network the number of useable alternative routes decrease the closer one is to London, trains from the South West can use Waterloo (at a pinch) but other routes are less well served. If possible avoiding tipping the passengers out of their train, whether into a bus or another train, has to be welcomed and avoidance of unnecessary miles and reversals (which cost time) also improves the 'customer experience'.

I realise that there most maintenance work can be done without closing the route between Didcot and London but one should be looking further ahead than the next ten or fifteen years. Who is to say that a grade separated junction for the Windsor line at Slough for an additional Crossrail service may not occur or that a stone train won't tip several hundred tonnes of ballast over the line at Airport Junction?

The more alternative routes there are, the better!

[IndustryInsider]

The more alternative routes there are, the better!

Very true, but in the case of a potential Chiltern line diversion it would mean crew signing that route (unlikely to be financially viable for such a distance), or pilot drivers being hired in - OK for big blockades, but unlikely to be possible to introduce for just unplanned service disruption.  I guess there's a small chance of the Crossrail service introduction works leading to diversions via that route towards the end of the decade, but GWML^▸ (Great Western Main Line) electrification is going to be done and dusted by the time it could be used.  I think there's a further (via Banbury) diversion due in Easter 2015 when Reading's final big alterations come into use.

And the point that electrification may well reduce the number of alternative routes for many trains is a good one.

[ChrisB]

Unfortunately, GW^▸ (Great Western) electrification will vastly *reduce* the number of diversions usable by their electric trains. Can't see a fleet of locos being kept simply to tow these over non-electrified lines, can you?

[IndustryInsider]

Indeed not.  That was my point.  Though at least having a reasonably large bi-mode fleet (and some HST^▸ (High Speed Train)'s in the shorter term) will keep some diversionary routes available still, at least in theory.

[TonyK]

Getting out of sequence is awkward. We have an exchange that reads (first lines only):

ChrisB:

Is the new embankment being built to W10 standards?

4064ReadingAbbey

Not directly!

On misunderstandings such as these are wars started (and the "Mastermind" sketch by the Two Ronnies based)

[Electric train]

Regards the question is the line being built to W10, my guess is it will be, NR^» (Network Rail - home page) Head of Track normally requires all new and where possible rebuilt existing infrastructure to be W12 / W10 even if it is just a island in amongst smaller gauges unless there is never going to be a chance in the future to increase those gauges.

[paul7575]

The Chiltern evidence to the TWA inspector goes into some detail on this.  All the work on the Oxford to Bicester section (common to East West Rail) is designed to allow for W12 and electrification, this was especially relevant to the DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) funded work at Wolvercot tunnel.   

Regarding the new Bicester Chord, isn't the only structure over the railway a footbridge to take the existing footpath, but why would this need to be W12 cleared anyway?  Nonetheless the difference between passenger and W12 would be minimal.

Paul

[4064ReadingAbbey]

Getting out of sequence is awkward. We have an exchange that reads (first lines only):

ChrisB:

Is the new embankment being built to W10 standards?

4064ReadingAbbey

Not directly!

On misunderstandings such as these are wars started (and the "Mastermind" sketch by the Two Ronnies based)

Sorry for the out of sequence post. I was replying to one post earlier - I hadn't realised that another post had arrived in the time before I pressed 'Send'.