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Author Topic: Flybe (based at Exeter) and domestic air travel - ongoing discussion (merged topic)  (Read 50658 times)
Thatcham Crossing
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« Reply #105 on: March 07, 2020, 13:24:58 »

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Does this mean we’ll see the aviation equivalent of “livery froth” before long?

There was already plenty of that within the Flybe fleet - I've seen Q400's in at least 4 different paint jobs recently, and none of the Embraer 175's were painted Flybe purple.
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TonyK
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« Reply #106 on: March 07, 2020, 15:10:17 »


I would hazard a guess and say that most of  Loganair's 145s are "hand me downs" from BA» (British Airways - about) when BA pulled out of a lot of UK (United Kingdom) domestic routes, many of which were actually operated by  Loganair in BA livery.

I looked at a sample, all of which were previously registered to BMI Regional, some from new in 2001.


The Q400 is capable of flight at higher levels, but my understanding is that the FL250 restriction is in place by regulatory authorities as it doesn't have drop-down oxygen for passengers  (if the pressurisation goes at FL250, you have less airspace to dive through to get to levels where oxygen is sufficient than if you were higher).

The service ceiling for a Q400 is 27,000 feet*. There is a crew oxygen system supplied by a bottle in the nose, and three masks with microphone. The cabin crew have access to a portable oxygen bottle that can also be used for emergency supply to passengers, but you're right, there are no oxygen masks fitted above the passenger seats. The plan is for a descent to 14,000 feet to be made within 4 minutes, which is breathable. Decompression at 27,000 feet would probably not cause loss of consciousness on its own, although I don't think it would be at all enjoyable. The difference in pressure from 25,000 to 14,000 feet would be about 330 hPa on a rule-of-thumb calculation. The crew supply lasts at least 2 hours. In a nutshell, if a Q400 decompressed at its ceiling, and nothing else went wrong, everybody would survive, but they would be inconvenienced. The lack of passenger oxygen systems gives a reduction in weight and cost, and is actually a safety benefit. The ones that drop down in emergencies (or system failure more often) are fed from a chemical reaction, and cost several hundred pounds each. The reaction is exothermic, and fires have happened when they have malfunctioned.

Aircraft leasing is a very mysterious business, even more mysterious than train leasing. There are many leasing companies, many of them subsidiaries  of the manufacturers, but the people who actually run the whole show are generally very anonymous, and sit at a level in the commercial world way above Richard Branson, Bill Gates, Donald Trump et al. They do very well out of the business, which has long been a source of puzzlement. Billions of dollars worth of serviceable aircraft are parked in deserts, the assets cost typically $250 million each and the airlines upgrade regularly, but even with a seat costing a pittance, a profit is turned at each level, except Flybe.

*The difference between 27,000 feet and FL (Flight Level) 270, if you were wondering, is the pressure. If you weren't wondering, skip to the next post. Up to a transition altitude, usually about 3000 to 5000 feet depending on the aerodrome, pilots set the altimeter to the "QNH" pressure, which is whatever a barometer at sea level would show for that area. They might land with "QFE" set, where the altimeter shows zero on the ground at the arrival airport rather than height above sea level. Above that transition altitude, the altimeter is set to the standard sea-level pressure of 1013.25 hectoPascals (hPa). This way, everybody flies at the same 27,000 feet, no matter what the air pressure is where they took off from. We recently had a pressure of 1050 hPa recorded in UK, and a low of 926 hPa has been recorded. That difference of 124 hPa represents an altitude difference of over 4,000 feet. Separation is usually 1,000 feet using the semi-circular rule: aircraft flying a course between 000° and 179° magnetic do so at flight levels with odd numbers of tens, those heading 180° to 359° on evens. Not having a standard altimeter pressure setting would lead to "loss of separation" in aviation jargon, or "collision" is common parlance. Next time you go to Mallorca, you will know why you go there at 37,000 feet , but home at 36,000.

To convert hectoPascals to millibars, multiply by 1.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2020, 15:21:32 by TonyK » Logged

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Clan Line
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« Reply #107 on: March 07, 2020, 15:28:05 »

The ones that drop down in emergencies (or system failure more often) are fed from a chemical reaction, and cost several hundred pounds each. The reaction is exothermic, and fires have happened when they have malfunctioned.

Indeed !    ValuJet Flight 592 in the Florida Everglades, 110 dead.
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« Reply #108 on: March 07, 2020, 19:42:19 »

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It is the speed of services generally to Cornwall that is therefore the issue not the Newquay branch.

....and that is why the replacement of Flybe on the PSO Newquay to London route needs to get sorted PDQ, with government assistance if possible. Anything beyond Exeter (or Plymouth at a stretch) is not doable for a day trip by rail from London and the Thames Valley.
3 hrs to Plymouth is not doable in a day return to/from London? I suspect the stats would show quite a lot of such journeys are undertaken.

I did Plymouth to London on a day trip recently, and then went via Cardiff on way home to get a HST (High Speed Train).... £6 all in. One of the big plusses driving buses for First group is our GWR (Great Western Railway) day rover rates
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« Reply #109 on: March 30, 2020, 14:56:07 »

Interesting ! From yesterday's Telegraph Business & Money section:

https://postimg.cc/G95ZSjwQ
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TonyK
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« Reply #110 on: March 30, 2020, 17:46:13 »

Interesting ! From yesterday's Telegraph Business & Money section:

https://postimg.cc/G95ZSjwQ

Someone will have the calculator out as we speak. Ultimately, it will be down to the government. It could mean economic sense, given what they would have to pay otherwise. Or not.
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« Reply #111 on: June 04, 2020, 18:12:14 »

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I'm fairly sure that all or nearly all of Flybe's aircraft are leased, so the lessors will re-possess and then try to re-market them.

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Turboprops have just as nice interiors as jets, but fly lower, typically 25,000 feet or so

The Q400 is capable of flight at higher levels, but my understanding is that the FL250 restriction is in place by regulatory authorities as it doesn't have drop-down oxygen for passengers  (if the pressurisation goes at FL250, you have less airspace to dive through to get to levels where oxygen is sufficient than if you were higher).

The Q400 can fly up to FL270, but requires an additional approvals/work from the manufacturer. Given that more Q400 operators don't need to go above FL250 as the flights are too short, hardly any if any airlines have taken it up.



 
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Thatcham Crossing
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« Reply #112 on: June 05, 2020, 08:08:46 »

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Given that more Q400 operators don't need to go above FL250 as the flights are too short, hardly any if any airlines have taken it up.

Flybe didn't and were restricted to FL250, but some of their sectors were definitely not short (for a turboprop), eg, the likes of Southampton-Alicante at about 2hrs 45min. Saying that, due to the speed of the Q400, even these sectors were only about 15-20mins longer than they would be in a pure jet.

Out of interest, very few of the ex-Flybe aircraft have moved since the Company folded at the beginning of March. For example, I believe the 6 Q400's that landed at Southampton on that final evening are still there (although they are having engine runs on I think a weekly basis). One of the few that has moved was the one that ended-up at Heathrow that night, it was ferried to Exeter on 3rd April. Only a few others of their approx. 65 aircraft fleet have moved since.
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« Reply #113 on: June 05, 2020, 19:14:33 »

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Given that more Q400 operators don't need to go above FL250 as the flights are too short, hardly any if any airlines have taken it up.

Flybe didn't and were restricted to FL250, but some of their sectors were definitely not short (for a turboprop), eg, the likes of Southampton-Alicante at about 2hrs 45min. Saying that, due to the speed of the Q400, even these sectors were only about 15-20mins longer than they would be in a pure jet.

Out of interest, very few of the ex-Flybe aircraft have moved since the Company folded at the beginning of March. For example, I believe the 6 Q400's that landed at Southampton on that final evening are still there (although they are having engine runs on I think a weekly basis). One of the few that has moved was the one that ended-up at Heathrow that night, it was ferried to Exeter on 3rd April. Only a few others of their approx. 65 aircraft fleet have moved since.

That's not true, several aircraft have now flown to Maastricht mainly G-JEC(x) registrations.  G-PRPJ has moved to Weeze.  Flybe's training academy in Exeter was sold to Devon County Council a few weeks ago, Flybe Aviation Services was put up for sale at the end of May with several interested parties, and the administrators are trying to keep the AOC (Aeronautical operational control, ) for Flybe as they believe a sale of the company or at the very least it's assets(slots) is possible.

I don't know of any Q400 that flies about FL250, it's not worth the extra cost, Flybe didn't bother because the flights to Alicante we're only during the Summer, I'd imagine the service cannot have been that busy otherwise an E175 or E195 would have been placed on the route.
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Thatcham Crossing
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« Reply #114 on: June 05, 2020, 20:01:58 »

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That's not true

Really, I've been following this quite closely, and yes a few have gone to Maastricht, one to Oslo Torp (presumably to Wideroe's DHC8 maintenance hangar there?), and a few others, but I'd still say that most of the aircraft (including all of the EMB175's) are still where they ended-up at the beginning of March.

Yes, the Training Academy has been sold into the Public Sector, but reportedly for a fraction of what it cost Flybe to build it.
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« Reply #115 on: June 05, 2020, 20:32:45 »

The commercial reality is (I suspect) that the unfortunate bank or leasing company that owns them can negotiate a better deal with Southampton airport to keep these planes that are now without a leasing customer than paying for storage elsewhere in what must be the most difficult market for them for many years .
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Thatcham Crossing
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« Reply #116 on: June 06, 2020, 08:56:23 »

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The commercial reality is (I suspect) that the unfortunate bank or leasing company that owns them can negotiate a better deal with Southampton airport to keep these planes that are now without a leasing customer than paying for storage elsewhere in what must be the most difficult market for them for many years

You're probably right, but I suspect that SOU will want them gone once operations start to ramp up again. If you know SOU, space is very limited.
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« Reply #117 on: June 07, 2020, 00:18:03 »


Yes, the Training Academy has been sold into the Public Sector, but reportedly for a fraction of what it cost Flybe to build it.

Don't forget the building cost included fitting out the engineering workshop and setting up two flight simulators, DCC» (Devon County Council - website) have only bought the shell of the building. The government also provided funding for the training academy which is why Flybe never sold it as originally planned, as they would have to pay that government money back.
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TonyK
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« Reply #118 on: June 08, 2020, 14:12:41 »


Yes, the Training Academy has been sold into the Public Sector, but reportedly for a fraction of what it cost Flybe to build it.

Don't forget the building cost included fitting out the engineering workshop and setting up two flight simulators, DCC» (Devon County Council - website) have only bought the shell of the building. The government also provided funding for the training academy which is why Flybe never sold it as originally planned, as they would have to pay that government money back.

Simulator time will be in demand, as pilots need to stay current. The Q400s will also prove popular soon, but not until paying customers can be put on them. Until then, best to leave them where they are, with somebody else paying to park and service them. Regular engine runs (and a few other things) are essential to keep surfaces clean and lubricated.
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« Reply #119 on: June 08, 2020, 14:32:52 »

A Flybe plane has been outside the arrivals/departures on the tarmac at Newquay since the evening of failure. It hasn’t moved
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