Clarification - making shorter journeys than ticketed

[whole diary]

[grahame]

At a local meeting in Wiltshire the other evening, there was a strong opinion held by much of the audience that it's illegal to join a train at an intermediate station to start your journey.   However, condition 16 of the conditions of carriage states:

16. Starting, breaking or ending a journey at intermediate stations.

You may start, or break and resume, a journey (in either direction in the case of a return ticket) at any intermediate station, as long as the ticket you hold is valid for the trains you want to use. You may also end your journey (in either direction in the case of a return ticket) before the destination shown on the ticket. However, these rights may not apply to some types of tickets for which a break of journey is prohibited, in which case the relevant Train Companies will make this clear in their notices and other publications.

This means that unless otherwise specified I can legally buy a Bath to London return ticket, and use it from Chippenham to London (outward), then from London to Bath on return if I wish.   And that I can buy a Swindon to Weymouth day return, but then just use it to make shorter Melksham to Weymouth and Weymouth back to Melksham journey.

My understanding is that Advanced tickets for specific trains, tickets which include a ferry across the Irish sea, and Megatrain tickets, are those which do not allow shorter journeys in this way. Are there any other major exceptions that I have overlooked?

[6 OF 2 redundant adjunct of unimatrix 01]

you can have a break in journey on all off peak and anytime singles and returns, it used to be that you could not break your outward journey however this is no longer the case .... restrictions still apply to advanced fairs 

[brompton rail]

Are you sure about all Off Peak Returns (used to be Savers) being valid for BoJ^▸ (Break of Journey).

Doncaster to Shrewsbury Off Peak Return (priced by TPE^▸ (Trans Pennine Express)) is valid after 04.00 (or thereabouts) but not valid for BoJ outwards. It can be used either via Stockport / Crewe OR via Birmingham New Street, which is why, I presume, BoJ is not allowed, as the fare is nearly half Anytime Return fare which is required for Doncaster to Birmingham only journey. Because this involves XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) I was recently told by EC booking office staff I had to pay the Anytime fare to Hereford, but she "looked again" when I challenged her (with a point out of the Fares in my hand) and then agreed yes I could use the Off Peak.

[JayMac]

It is not all Off Peak tickets that allow break of journey, and it would be wrong to give such across the board advice.

For Off Peak and Super Off Peak National Rail Enquiries says:

You may start, break and resume, or end your journey at any intermediate station along the route of travel on Off-Peak tickets unless the ticket restriction for the journey you are making does not allow it. If you intend to start, break and resume, or end your journey at any intermediate station, please call 08457 48 49 50 to check if it is available on your specific journey.

For Off Peak Day and Super Off Peak Day National Rail Enquiries says:

Break of journey is allowed on Off-Peak Day and Super Off-Peak Day tickets unless restricted for the journey you are making. If you intend to break your journey, please call 08457 48 49 50 to check if it is available on your specific journey.

The National Rail Conditions of Carriage state:

16. Starting, breaking or ending a journey at intermediate stations
You may start, or break and resume, a journey (in either direction in the case of a return ticket) at any intermediate station, as long as the ticket you hold is valid for the trains you want to use. You may also end your journey (in either direction in the case of a return ticket) before the destination shown on the ticket. However, these rights may not apply to some types of tickets for which a break of journey is prohibited, in which case the relevant Train Companies will make this clear in their notices and other publications.

My emphases in bold.

Whilst it is the case that most journeys with Off Peak/Super Off Peak Singles/Return and Off Peak/Super Off Peak Day Singles/Returns allow break of journey there are many exceptions. With some Returns it is disallowed on the outward journey only, whilst others disallow it both ways.

Break of journey is however allowed on all Anytime tickets in Great Britain. For journeys that involve ferry travel to the Republic of Ireland via Holyhead or Fishguard Harbour, break of journey is allowed on the rail leg and in both directions in the case of a return. For travel to Northern Ireland via Stranraer, break of journey is not permitted out or return. For travel to the Isle of Man via Heysham or Liverpool break of journey is allowed both ways. A day trip to Calais via Dover also permits break of journey out and return. For journeys to The Netherlands via Harwich break of journey is not permitted as these are Advance Purchase fares only.

[6 OF 2 redundant adjunct of unimatrix 01]

oh dear im not having a good day am i.....

[Trowres]

Cheer up, Relex. From nationalrail.co.uk, the T&Cs for off-peak returns:

A break of journey is allowed on the outward portion unless otherwise indicated by a restriction shown against the ticket's validity code and is allowed on the return portion of your ticke

So it's possible to find out the validity for break of journey without phoning NRES^▸ (National Rail Enquiry Service) (if you have mastered finding the validity codes  ). This extract implies that there are never any break restrictions on the return journey with an off-peak return, contrary to one of the comments above. Now who's going to come up with an exception?

[Brucey]

There are some Southern Super Off Peak Returns that have recently had BoJ^▸ (Break of Journey) banned in both directions.  E.g. ticket PDR has the following restriction for BoJ in both directions

Available when:

    Changing trains for connectional purposes
    Inside the London Fare Zones area, but only on the line of route for the ticket

AFAIK^▸ (as far as I know), there aren't any fares set by FGW^▸ (First Great Western) where BoJ is banned in both directions.

[JayMac]

London Midland also have BoJ^▸ (Break of Journey) restrictions on a range of walk-up Off Peak/Super Off Peak on some flows that they price with 'London Midland Only' routeing.

[6 OF 2 redundant adjunct of unimatrix 01]

I missed the words in most cases and restrictions may apply :-(

[Brucey]

I've been looking at the Southern fares in more detail and can possibly see (although I think its wrong) why they've done this.

Havant - London Terminals (a route where two TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) operate).  Cheapest SN only return is PDR at ^16.00.
Barnham - London Terminals (only SN operate).  Cheapest return is CDR^▸ (Off Peak Day Return [ticket type] (formerly 'Cheap Day')) at ^26.30.

Before the BoJ^▸ (Break of Journey) restriction was put in place, I can imagine people were buying these tickets from Portsmouth/Southampton area stations but using them for a shorter journey.

[thetrout]

As an addon to that Brucey. Not sure if this is the case now. But I recall a SOUTHERN ONLY First Class Off-Peak Period Return from Southampton Central - Gatwick Airport was MORE expensive than a SOUTHERN ONLY First Class Off-Peak Period Return from Southampton - London Terminals via Gatwick Airport. (SWT^▸ (South West Trains) Services run via Basingstoke whereas SN Services run via Horsham IIRC^▸ (if I recall/remember/read correctly))

Does the Southampton Ctl - London Termials SOUTHERN ONLY First Class Off-Peak return also have restriction PDR?

Ta

[Brucey]

PDR is the ticket type (like SVR, CDR^▸ (Off Peak Day Return [ticket type] (formerly 'Cheap Day')), etc)

There are three Southampton Central to London Terminals Southern Only Fist Class Returns.
FCR (Off Peak Day Return) ^39.40 (Break of journey permitted in both directions; Restriction C0)
FSR^▸ (First Scot Rail) (Off Peak Return) ^44.40 (Break of journey permitted in both directions; Restriction 4B)
FDR (Anytime Day Return) ^74.20 (Break of journey allowed in both directions)
Surprisingly there is no FOR

When you look at standard class, then you bump into PDS and PDR fares which ban BoJ^▸ (Break of Journey) in both directions.

And just for completeness...
The FSR (route Havant) for SOU - GTW is ^45.30 with restriction code 8A which disallows break of journey on the outward journey.
Of course there are no PDS or PDR fares available for this journey.

Quite how the guards and revenue protection staff are supposed to remember which restriction applies to which ticket is something I'll never understand!

[Trowres]

I'm not following the above... which fares have the BoJ^▸ (Break of Journey) restriction? I've tried Southampton, Barnham and Havant - London on nationalrail.co.uk and these come up with a super off peak fare (e.g. ^16 for which restriction code is PB, with no BoJ restriction shown).

[JayMac]

There are some Southern Super Off Peak Returns that have recently had BoJ^▸ (Break of Journey) banned in both directions.  E.g. ticket PDR has the following restriction for BoJ in both directions

Available when:

    Changing trains for connectional purposes
    Inside the London Fare Zones area, but only on the line of route for the ticket

AFAIK^▸ (as far as I know), there aren't any fares set by FGW^▸ (First Great Western) where BoJ is banned in both directions.

Until the information in the public domain is in agreement with what is in NFM10, then BoJ will remain permitted on the Super Off Peak Day Single/Return (Southern Only) from certain stations where Southern are not the lead operator.

Southern may want to bar BoJ on these flows with ticket types PDS/PDR, but at the moment the information supplied by National Rail Enquiries (the 'definitive source of information for rail passengers) makes no mention that BoJ is not permitted. In the absence of that then BoJ is, by default, allowed. The National Rail Conditions of Carriage is clear on this:

You may start, or break and resume, a journey (in either direction in the case of a return
ticket) at any intermediate station, as long as the ticket you hold is valid for the trains you
want to use. You may also end your journey (in either direction in the case of a return
ticket) before the destination shown on the ticket. However, these rights may not apply to
some types of tickets for which a break of journey is prohibited, in which case the relevant
Train Companies will make this clear in their notices and other publications.

[grahame]

Is there an irony here?  I started the thread asking for clarifications, and we seem to have established just how unclear the whole business is.

Would it be fair to say ... "With the exception of advanced tickets for specific trains, on most journeys to / from / through Wiltshire you can buy a ticket for a longer journey and join the train after the "from" station, and / or leave it before the "to" station".