G4S checking tickets

[whole diary]

[Gordon the Blue Engine]

Mrs GTBE was travelling on a Turbo from Reading this evening, and was approached by 2 guys in G4S uniform and asked for her ticket.  She challenged them as to who they were and why they were checking tickets, whereupon they produced FGW^▸ (First Great Western) identification badges and stated that G4S was contracted by FGW to check tickets on trains.

I must say I'm surprised that people other than FGW employees in FGW uniform are checking tickets - why is FGW doing this?

[inspector_blakey]

For a long time Attlaw Security were contracted by Thames Trains to man the barriers at Oxford (usually with a uniformed member of actual rail staff overseeing proceedings): my experience of these staff was frankly exceedingly poor, with thuggish and rude behaviour more becoming of nightclub bouncers. Post-GW^▸ (Great Western) takeover these staff seem to have disappeared, although I suppose it's still entirely possible that the gateline staff are still actually employed by a security firm but wearing an FGW^▸ (First Great Western) uniform.

First I've heard of G4S undertaking ticket checks on behalf of FGW (and unless they're equipped with Avantix^▸ (Ticket Issuing System used on board trains) machines or Authorized Persons under the penalty fares scheme it seems a fairly pointless exercise) but there are certainly plenty of precedents for TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) contracting out in this way.

[Surrey 455]

I can't remember whether it was when FGW^▸ (First Great Western) Link took over from Thames Trains or when FGW Link became just FGW, but there were a minimum of two ticket inspectors at the top of the stairs on platform 4 (occasionally at the bottom) for several months in the peak hour mornings at West Drayton. They were employed by a security company. Might have been Attlaw, never saw them in the evening on the return journey but that might have been due to accidentally missing several trains each evening while I was in The Mad Bishop and Bear.

[Brucey]

I

For a long time Attlaw Security were contracted by Thames Trains to man the barriers at Oxford (usually with a uniformed member of actual rail staff overseeing proceedings): my experience of these staff was frankly exceedingly poor, with thuggish and rude behaviour more becoming of nightclub bouncers.

Same with other TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company).  London Midland have someone at the MKC^▸ (Milton Keynes Central) gateline in a typical security guard "I'm dressed to look like an important person but have no more power/rights than you" uniform, complete with hat and reflective stickers who checks tickets.  He is always found with three or four LM^▸ (London Midland - recent franchise) staff in standard uniform.

Does anyone know what powers these staff have (with regards to FGW^▸ (First Great Western) and any other TOC)?  Are they the equivalent of Southeastern's Rail Enforcement Officers or just "agency" RPIs^▸ (Revenue Protection Inspector (or Retail Price Index, depending on the context))?

[vacman]

There are a couple of security guards who are Authorised persons for Penalty fares in the London area and work as contractors for FGW^▸ (First Great Western), they have the same powers as any other railway employee, railway byelaws often refer to "Officers or servants of the railway", I assume they fall into the servant role.

[phile]

There were people dressed in non-railway regalia  checking tickets at Fenchurch St a few years ago and when I showed my Concessionary Travel Card with box completed, this guy did not know what it was and had to call and ask a member of railway staff.

[northwesterntrains]

G4S have been undertaking ticket checks in the North West for quite a while on behalf of Northern and First North Western before them.  Only recently have they been given Northern uniforms (they still wear G4S identification badges.)  I'm not surprised if someone sees a G4S person in a fluorescent yellow jacket they question whether they are actually have authority to check tickets.  TV program The Real Hustle has shown how many cons can be pulled off just because they see someone in a fluorescent jacket they believe they are an official looking person.

I've heard of G4S ticket inspectors doing to the following:
1. Taking tickets off people when they leave the platform even though they are still valid for onward travel.
2. Telling people travel to Deansgate is not permitted with a Manchester STNs ticket, when in fact Deansgate is part of the Manchester stations group.
3. Telling people they aren't allowed to break their journey on journeys where breaks are permitted.
4. Not letting passengers excess a ticket they already purchased, when they've had no previous opportunity to buy an excess.

And the worse one of all - when Arriva took over Northern Spirit and staff got given Arriva uniforms they told conductors and guards doing changeovers at Manchester Piccadilly that they had to produce a ticket as bus drivers don't get free train rides.

[grahame]

I've heard of G4S ticket inspectors doing to the following ...

I'm not entirely you can entirely say that's because they're outside contractor staff, though.  I've had TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) staff tell me that my ticket doesn't include cross-London travel when it does, that it's not valid on a particular train when it is, and that I must purchase a ticket before I get on the train, even at Melksham where there are no ticket purchase facilities. And I have a friend who the direct employed chap wouldn't sell a Melksham to Bristol ticket to until my friend proved he lived in Melksham!    Mostly - thank goodness - old stories; mostly doing much better these days; just the occasional gaff largely dur to an overcomplex fare system.

[Gordon the Blue Engine]

Mrs GTBE was again on a train from Reading to Pangbourne yersterday evening (having been shopping for my Christmas presents I hope).  Two G4S staff were sitting in first class - one was on his mobile phone in a foreign language for the entire 10 minutes, the other sat doing nothing.  She wasn't asked for her ticket - she was all ready to refuse and to say that she would show it to a FGW^▸ (First Great Western) person, but never got the chance!

I'm happy to pass train details to FGW off line if requested. 

[northwesterntrains]

She wasn't asked for her ticket - she was all ready to refuse and to say that she would show it to a FGW^▸ (First Great Western) person, but never got the chance!

Under NRCoC^▸ (National Rail Conditions of Carriage) if the operator has appointed a third party to perform ticket checks then the passenger does have to show them their ticket.  Likewise if you are boarding a FGW service at an ATW^▸ (Arriva Trains Wales (former TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company))) managed station you can't refuse to show an ATW ticket inspector your ticket because you're travelling with FGW.

[paul7575]

I've seen a few occasions where SWT^▸ (South West Trains) RPIs^▸ (Revenue Protection Inspector (or Retail Price Index, depending on the context)) have done full ticket checks on SN services approaching or leaving Southampton.  I doubt many passengers would even notice the different uniforms, but the two TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) do have an agreement in place for this, it must be useful for the TOCs in areas where they run parallel routes - as it helps keep any persistent offenders guessing where they might get checked...

Paul

[JayMac]

I'm happy to pass train details to FGW^▸ (First Great Western) off line if requested. 

I suggest you do that. I'm not a big fan of contracted in security/revenue staff. If FGW perceive there is a problem with revenue protection on certain parts of the network then they should employ Revenue Protection staff themselves.

I'd hazard a guess though that neither the TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) or G4S would be happy to hear that these contractors are sitting in 1st Class. If they're off duty or on a break then they should be riding Std Class, if they're on duty then they should be working the entire train and not just sitting in 1st.

[BerkshireBugsy]

I'd hazard a guess though that neither the TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) or G4S would be happy to hear that these contractors are sitting in 1st Class. If they're off duty or on a break then they should be riding Std Class, if they're on duty then they should be working the entire train and not just sitting in 1st.

For some reason (and this may be off topic) I had assumed that off duty train staff were entitled to travel first class. This isn't me complaining I just assumed it was a perk of their job. For example on some earlyr morning services certain regular FGW^▸ (First Great Western) staff will occupy the front section of the service (whether it happens to be1st or Std class)

[JayMac]

Most off duty rail staff do not have an automatic right to travel 1st Class. And I'd be very surprised if contracted in G4S staff were afforded that privilege.

[vacman]

FGW^▸ (First Great Western) do have quite a large Revenue Protection department, however, the G4S staff are security guards and often work with the RPI^▸ (Revenue Protection Inspector (or Retail Price Index, depending on the context))'s as back up!