ORR concerned at lack of Pacer replacement program

[whole diary]

[SandTEngineer]

Last week I travelled on an Northern Class 180 and to say I was shocked is an understatement. It was the filthiest train I have travelled on in the past 10 years and as there were no free seats I had pleanty of opportunity to look at the carpets and toilets. I know that people on here complain incesently about Voyagers but they need to travel on the train I did to see how lucky we actually are in the SW.

By the way I was stood in the vestible next to the former First Class coach but you would not have realised it by the state it was in

[inspector_blakey]

Sad to see that Northern have managed to bring the state of the 180s down to the lowest common denominator as well. More work that FGW^▸ (First Great Western) (or anyone else) will have to do to bring them back into an acceptable state once they stop their ridiculous pootling around on stopping services in the north west and get redeployed onto some actual express trains.

[eightf48544]

Acording FGW^▸ (First Great Western)'s Developement Manger at the Slough meeting.

142s go back to Northern in November!
180 arrive for December.

[northwesterntrains]

Last week I travelled on an Northern Class 180 and to say I was shocked is an understatement. It was the filthiest train I have travelled on in the past 10 years and as there were no free seats I had pleanty of opportunity to look at the carpets and toilets. I know that people on here complain incesently about Voyagers but they need to travel on the train I did to see how lucky we actually are in the SW.

By the way I was stood in the vestible next to the former First Class coach but you would not have realised it by the state it was in

As you'd expect when you have First Class seating available for standard class passengers everyone goes for the FC^‡(resolve) seats meaning carriage D needs striping out and starting again as it's so worn down.  The other carriages are in better condition though.

[northwesterntrains]

Sad to see that Northern have managed to bring the state of the 180s down to the lowest common denominator as well. More work that FGW^▸ (First Great Western) (or anyone else) will have to do to bring them back into an acceptable state

I'm not defending Northern's policy of refurbishment but the 180s weren't in good condition when they first arrived.  Northern were originally told that they'll have them for 6 months and then they'll get the LO 150s as replacement.  FGW complained about that pointing out the 142s they have are subleased from Northern and it got revised so that LO 150s were to go to FGW and the 142s back to Northern.  Northern then complained etc. etc. The 172s for LO kept getting delayed and EC said they no longer wanted the 180s that had been secured for NXEA^▸ (National Express East Anglia) meaning FGW were allowed to keep the 142s until they got LM^▸ (London Midland - recent franchise) 150s.

All this led to the duration of the 180s being extended a few months at a time so Northern presumably kept thinking that they'll lose them in a few months time so it'll be a waste of money to refresh them.

once they stop their ridiculous pootling around on stopping services in the north west and get redeployed onto some actual express trains.

Yes but I wonder when FGW will stop using HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train) on stopping services out of Paddington.

[northwesterntrains]

Acording FGW^▸ (First Great Western)'s Developement Manger at the Slough meeting.

142s go back to Northern in November!
180 arrive for December.

How many 150s will Northern have from LM^▸ (London Midland - recent franchise) by November?

The plan is for 6 busy 156 diagrams in Merseyside to be replaced by 4 car 142s and 142+150 combinations.  4 x156s will go to EMT^» (East Midlands Trains - about).  The other 2x156s will run 156+150 formations to replace the 180s.  The 156s to EMT are higher priority than releasing the 180s, as they were due to go to EMT in May when the 180s were unallocated.  That means at least 14 x 2 car DMUs^▸ (Diesel Multiple Unit) are required at Northern before the 3x180s will be released (I imagine it'll be more like 18 x 2 car DMUs though as Northern are short forming services at present even when both 180s are running.)

Presumably if FGW are taking on the 180s they'll get the two 180s that haven't run a service since leaving FGW first?

[inspector_blakey]

All this led to the duration of the 180s being extended a few months at a time so Northern presumably kept thinking that they'll lose them in a few months time so it'll be a waste of money to refresh them.

I understand that Northern would not have been able to make a case for any kind of refurbishment. However, simply keeping trains clean isn't refreshing them, it's basic maintenance. You'll notice that SandTEngineer's post made references to them being filthy, which would suggest that nobody is bothering to clean them properly. Regardless of the length of time the trains were being kept for, they should be kept clean. FGW^▸ (First Great Western) did an excellent job of this when they were operating the units, and they were very pleasant to travel on right up until the end in 2009. I hope that if the 180s really have deteriorated that much whilst in Northern's care, the ROSCO^» (Rolling Stock Owning Company - about) bills Northern for the remedial work necessary to bring them back up to an acceptable standard.

Yes but I wonder when FGW will stop using HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train) on stopping services out of Paddington.

A red herring - a limited number of HSTs make some local calls around the Thames Valley and Bristol areas in the peaks, but none of them are what I would describe as stopping services: at the very worst they are 'semi-fast'. The slow acceleration of an HST versus a Turbo would eat up capacity which is why they're not used on stopping services per se. And further, all of the HST diagrams are genuine express work for most of the day.

[northwesterntrains]

I hope that if the 180s really have deteriorated that much whilst in Northern's care, the ROSCO^» (Rolling Stock Owning Company - about) bills Northern for the remedial work necessary to bring them back up to an acceptable standard.

On paper that sounds the right thing to do.  However, I heard Northern have spent hundreds of thousands on parts just getting the trains in to a serviceable condition before they put them in to service.  If that's right and if the ROSCO didn't bill FGW^▸ (First Great Western) for that and pass on the money to Northern, then why would Northern be billed for not shampooing the carpets and replacing seat covers in the FC^‡(resolve) section? (Note that there's two ifs in that question.)

[SandTEngineer]

I wasn't referring to refurbishment but just to general day to day cleaning.  I can't recall the last time I travelled on a dirty FGW^▸ (First Great Western) service and I even include those trains used for the Glastonbury Festival services which were always clean the next day.

[Andrew1939 from West Oxon]

Class 180s may have not had a good reliability record when with FGW^▸ (First Great Western) but FGW did keep them reasonably clean when they operated on the Cotswold Line. FGW has also had a better record for keeping all its trains tidier than the former Thames Trains did with regular littler pickers patrolling the trains. Credit where credit is due.

[IndustryInsider]

Indeed.  Cleaning was patchy at best at Paddington on Thames Trains services, and there was no such thing as a turnaround cleaner at Oxford or cleaners joining services en-route.

[bobm]

The slow acceleration of an HST^▸ (High Speed Train) ...............

That's one thing the moving maps on the volo system did bring home to me - how long it takes an HST to get up to line-speed after a station stop.  It was very illuminating - even on Brunel's Billiard Table the driver still had his work cut out.

[inspector_blakey]

Cleaning was patchy at best at Paddington on Thames Trains services, and there was no such thing as a turnaround cleaner at Oxford or cleaners joining services en-route.

Indeed so - and I think that's being quite charitable! That was one of the main things that really used to annoy me about Thames Trains; units would enter service from the sidings full of litter, and it got worse and worse during the day. In the afternoon peak they were frequently disgusting.

Always brought to mind an old 'Not the Nine O'Clock News' sketch (tried to find it on youtube but failed) - two cleaners sitting in an empty train having a cigarette with full bags of rubbish at their sides. Rowan Atkinson, dressed in a BR^▸ (British Rail(ways)) guard's uniform, walks down the aisle and barks 'Come on, this train has to be ready to leave in five minutes!'. Said cleaners reluctantly get to their feet and start emptying the contents of their bin bags all over the train  (apologies if I've referenced that sketch before, but it's always amused me...)

That's one thing the moving maps on the volo system did bring home to me - how long it takes an HST^▸ (High Speed Train) to get up to line-speed after a station stop.  It was very illuminating - even on Brunel's Billiard Table the driver still had his work cut out.

I think I read in an article in The Railway Magazine, going back several years to when the 180s were first being introduced, that as an example, between Didcot and Swindon (which as far as I know is flat and without any speed restrictions) an HST will probably only graze 125 mph relatively briefly before having to brake for the next stop. That's a journey that's timetabled for 16 - 20 minutes. I'm sure there are other posters who can confirm or correct me on this though! Shouldn't be too much hard work for the driver though - assuming the road's clear ahead they can probably just drop the power handle into notch 5 and wait for the needle to creep round the speedo.

[eightf48544]

re moving teh handle round to notch 5: if my Siam driver simulation is correct for an HST^▸ (High Speed Train) you can only do one notch at a time or the am meter goes into the yellow and you get an overload warning. Admittedly this would be for a Paxman engined set.

[IndustryInsider]

I think I read in an article in The Railway Magazine, going back several years to when the 180s were first being introduced, that as an example, between Didcot and Swindon (which as far as I know is flat and without any speed restrictions) an HST^▸ (High Speed Train) will probably only graze 125 mph relatively briefly before having to brake for the next stop. That's a journey that's timetabled for 16 - 20 minutes. I'm sure there are other posters who can confirm or correct me on this though!

Drifting off topic...but...I posted a few years ago a graph of HST acceleration performance http://img249.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=00854_img344_122_362lo.jpg - it does vary quite considerably, but an average HST will reach 125mph from a stop on relatively flat track (like between Didcot and Swindon) in around 7-10 miles, and from experience I can tell you that you'll easily reach 125mph on that stretch and be able to hold it for well over 10 miles before needing to brake for Swindon (or vice-versa).

Therefore, we really need to know how the reliability of FGW^▸ (First Great Western) 142s compares to their other units for the full picture.

Getting back on topic...

Here's the latest reliability figures I've seen for all of FGW's traction (excluding 08's and 57's!), on a 'Moving Annual Average' miles per casualty basis:

TYPE         2011/12 P2      2010/11 P2    % CHANGE
Class 142      6823            3871          +76%
Class 143      5845            3665          +59%
Class 150      5928            5033          +18%
Class 153      6182            5995          +3%
Class 158      7708            6542          +18%
Class 165      11029           11828         -7%
Class 166      11786           11263          +5%
Class 43       11753           13497         -13%


Overall, at the moment, FGW's Class 142's are more reliable than either 143's, 150's, or 153's, and are not too far behind Class 158's.  Though just a year a go that was a very different picture.  The only common theme is that the Turbo's and HST's remain in a different class reliability wise, although have dipped from this time last year.  Though when you bear in mind some electric unit classes are in the 40000-50000 mark with Class 444's hitting nearly 70000 and those stats soon seem less impressive!