HS2: For or against?

[whole diary]

[ChrisB]

You're not explaining yourself very well...

You want a link from hs2? Only hs2 trains run on hs2...so if you then have a link from hs2 to New Street, only hs2 would use it....?

So please explain further how you propose this link works please

[Btline]

What's to explain?

The existing setup will only allow terminating trains at Curzon Street. It is a terminus - look at the plans.

My idea will allow trains to use the HSL and then call at New Street instead of Curzon Street on the way to/from other exotic destinations such as Bristol Temple Meads and Newcastle. This is possible because New Street is not a terminus - access is possible from West and East. These would be existing VT^▸ (Virgin Trains - former franchises) and XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) services.

"Only HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)) trains use HS2" - not true, services from Glasgow will run WCML^▸ (West Coast Main Line) to Lichfield, before joining HS2 to London.

[ChrisB]

*Perhaps a link line from HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)) going into New Street, to allow services from Wolverhampton, Sandwell and Dudley, and perhaps Walsall, Stafford and Stoke to be switched to High Speed running. XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) services from Manchester to the South could also be switched as well as XC services from the Southwest towards the North East.

There - you see. You *have* proposed HS2 trains run into New Street. There are NO paths, nor platforms for these trains. Also, HS2 is HIGH SPEED, using them as commuter connections would be a complete waste.

*A good interchange with the Snow Hill lines at Moor Street.

Already in the spec. Have you read it? The terminus is next door to Moor Street.

*The walk to New Street will only be 3 minutes, but a better signed route though the underpass would be good, with fewer stairs and no road crossings.

Errr - the terminus is the other side of Moor Street to New Street. Chiltern advertise a 10 minute walk from Moor Street to New Street - so how do you calculate it's a 3 minute walk from the wrong side of Moor Street. Please get your facts straight if you want a proper discussion.

[ChrisB]

"Only HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)) trains use HS2" - not true, services from Glasgow will run WCML^▸ (West Coast Main Line) to Lichfield, before joining HS2 to London.

You're wrong, sorry.

I'm right - no trains other than hs2 trains will be running on HS2 track - however, HS2 will run over 'ordinary' rails with other stock.

[Btline]

There - you see. You *have* proposed HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)) trains run into New Street. There are NO paths, nor platforms for these trains. Also, HS2 is HIGH SPEED, using them as commuter connections would be a complete waste.

So if there are no paths or platforms for these trains, how is it that they run? As far as I remember Bristol to Newcastle trains call at BHM. Please correct me if I'm wrong (or trying READING the WHOLE post). Deary me...

If using HS2 for non HS^▸ (High Speed (short for HSS^▸ (High Speed Services) High Speed Services)) services is a waste, why are existing WCML^▸ (West Coast Main Line) trains being diverted onto the line at Lichfield? The VT^▸ (Virgin Trains - former franchises) and XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) services I have suggested are 125 mph services not just for commuters. A major purpose of HS2 is to take existing trains off the WCML!

Have you ever walked from Moor Street to New Street? If you think it takes 10 minutes then you clearly haven't, or stopped at the Apple store on the way to drool over the iPad 2. What rail companies say is irrelevant, they'll always exaggerate. e.g. 30 minutes for Glasgow Central to Queen Street. Rubbish - 10 at most.

[mjones]

"Only HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)) trains use HS2" - not true, services from Glasgow will run WCML^▸ (West Coast Main Line) to Lichfield, before joining HS2 to London.

You're wrong, sorry.

I'm right - no trains other than hs2 trains will be running on HS2 track - however, HS2 will run over 'ordinary' rails with other stock.

I think btline is proposing that  'classic compatible' train sets would be used for some London to Birmingham services, instead of the dedicated european guage trains that will run only on HS2, enabling them to run into  New St and hence to Wolverhampton by a connection somewhere on the Water Orton line. This assumes the Water Orton line is electrified, though I think that is proposed anyway, so that alone isn't insurmountable. But the classic compatible trains are much more expensive than the ones that will be dedicated to the high speed line, which will increase costs, then there is the problem of slots in New St etc etc. The dedicated HS2 trains will also be much longer than the classic compatible, so  more trains will be needed, requiring more HS2 slots, making it even less cost effective.

[mjones]

So if there are no paths or platforms for these trains, how is it that they run? As far as I remember Bristol to Newcastle trains call at BHM. Please correct me if I'm wrong (or trying READING the WHOLE post). Deary me...

If using HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)) for non HS^▸ (High Speed (short for HSS^▸ (High Speed Services) High Speed Services)) services is a waste, why are existing WCML^▸ (West Coast Main Line) trains being diverted onto the line at Lichfield? The VT^▸ (Virgin Trains - former franchises) and XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) services I have suggested are 125 mph services not just for commuters. A major purpose of HS2 is to take existing trains off the WCML!

Possible misunderstanding here: all the trains that will run on HS2 will be high speed. The 'classic compatible' services to the North will all be high speed while they run on HS2 itself. They aren't proposing to divert Pendolino services onto HS2. Putting 125 (or even 140) mph trains onto HS2 would waste capacity as they'd get in the way of the high speed services going at up to 250mph.

[ChrisB]

So if there are no paths or platforms for these trains, how is it that they run? As far as I remember Bristol to Newcastle trains call at BHM. Please correct me if I'm wrong (or trying READING the WHOLE post). Deary me...

I did read your whole post - indeed, I've quoted most of it above.
You seem to be confused. First you suggest a link from HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)) to New Street. New street is currently full, so no HS2 trains could use this link into New Street.

If using HS2 for non HS^▸ (High Speed (short for HSS^▸ (High Speed Services) High Speed Services)) services is a waste, why are existing WCML^▸ (West Coast Main Line) trains being diverted onto the line at Lichfield?

They're NOT. Read the document. It's the other way around - HS2 are being diverted onto WCML, not non-HS services being diverted onto HS2.

The VT^▸ (Virgin Trains - former franchises) and XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) services I have suggested are 125 mph services not just for commuters. A major purpose of HS2 is to take existing trains off the WCML!

You haven't read the document, have you. No it's not at all. WCML trains will only still run down the WCML to Euston.

Have you ever walked from Moor Street to New Street?

Yup, at least twice a week,m every week. It's slower to go through trhe Bull ring too. Use the underpass & you only have to cross roads twice, both at traffic light controlled crossings. You can't do it in 5 minutes from Moor Street barriers to New Street 'barrier' in 5 minutes, but you can in 10 minutes. So 10 minutes is what they use. I was with Chiltern when we stopwatched it!

Where were you?

[inspector_blakey]

Ladies and gentlemen - can I remind you please to attempt to keep the tone of your discussions civil? There's nothing wrong with a robust exchange of sincerely held opinions, but this thread looks like it's in danger of degenerating in the same way that the Cotswold Line thread has done in recent days.

This is a warning shot for now, but if things dissolve further then appropriate action will be taken. Thanks for your understanding.

[Btline]

Of course Pendolinos won't run on HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)) - they can only operate at 140mph! How would they fit in with the 250mph services? Any trains using HS2 will be the "classic compatible" ones, similar to Eurostar.

I have not made a mistake - some WCML^▸ (West Coast Main Line) trains will run down HS2 from day 1. HS2 is not just about London to Bham.

I give up trying to explain. Mjones understands. I apologise if I have been "forceful" in my discussion, but I'm afraid it is very frustrating for someone to misinterpret a pretty simple concept multiple times.

If it took you 10 minutes to walk you were walking slowly.

[mjones]

Of course Pendolinos won't run on HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)) - they can only operate at 140mph! How would they fit in with the 250mph services? Any trains using HS2 will be the "classic compatible" ones, similar to Eurostar.

I have not made a mistake - some WCML^▸ (West Coast Main Line) trains will run down HS2 from day 1. HS2 is not just about London to Bham.

I give up trying to explain. Mjones understands. I apologise if I have been "forceful" in my discussion, but I'm afraid it is very frustrating for someone to misinterpret a pretty simple concept multiple times.

If it took you 10 minutes to walk you were walking slowly.

I understand that you are proposing classic compatible services from London going via New St instead of terminating at Curzon St, though the increased costs and capacity constraints already mentioned are still a  problem. But I remain confused by your reference to services from Bristol and Newcastle, where do you see them fitting in? (Edit, to clarify: Bristol to Birmingham isn't electrified, so not available to classic compatible services, even if the costs were justified. Nor could the classic compatible services continue to Newcastle until  the eastern Y route is built, unless further electrification of the classic cross country network is done). 

[ChrisB]

Of course Pendolinos won't run on HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)) - they can only operate at 140mph! How would they fit in with the 250mph services? Any trains using HS2 will be the "classic compatible" ones, similar to Eurostar.

Did I miss you mentioning 'classic compatible' trains in an earlier post? I'm sure I didn't......
Can you point me to where these non-hs2 trains are mentioned in the published proposal, because I can't see them.....

Indeed, how are you suggesting these reach Birmingham & Wolverhampton? You accept that there are no paths for them, so which trains are you replacing? And platform lengthening perchance at Wolves? Because they're full too for terminators.

I have not made a mistake - some WCML^▸ (West Coast Main Line) trains will run down HS2 from day 1. HS2 is not just about London to Bham.

All I have seen is HS2 trains either to Curzon Street or onto the WCML at Lichfield onto Manchester & Liverpool. Please advise where I can read about the trains you suggest?

I give up trying to explain. Mjones understands. I apologise if I have been "forceful" in my discussion, but I'm afraid it is very frustrating for someone to misinterpret a pretty simple concept multiple times.

As I said, if you'd explained about classic compatible, the confusion would have been dealt with. But I suspect that's more you proposing them than the Government. Because what happens to them when they extend the line north & they need the HS2 paths for further HS2 trains.....

If it took you 10 minutes to walk you were walking slowly.

With respect, you failed to read my post. I said more than 5 minutes but not as much as 10. But because you can't advertise 5 minutes, they chose to go with 10. I'd like to see you do Moor Street barriers to New Street 'barrier' in 5 minutes. Especially during the day when you can't just wander straght across the roads. It's impossible.
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[Btline]

I was assuming the Y had been built and Bristol to Bromsgrove had been electrified. Fantasy land perhaps...

Manchester to Reading is possible though, calling at Stockport, stations to New Street, Brum Int, Old Oak (Heathrow?) and Reading.

VT^▸ (Virgin Trains - former franchises) already run services from Wolverhampton to Euston every hour. I was suggesting that they were diverted onto HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)). One train a day runs non stop from New Street so it would make perfect sense! Of course, the links and services to Coventry would have to be considered. It was just an idea to ensure as much of the West Mids benefitted as possible.

My overlying point is that I think Brum branch trains just stopping at Curson Street makes HS2 feel "separate" to the rest of the network. A bit like SE HS1^▸ (High Speed line 1 - St Pancras to Channel Tunnel) services do. We should integrate as much as possible so that you're just boarding a "normal" train that just happens to be using the HSL for part of its journey and is made of classic compatible stock.

Also, we need Ashford to Leeds and Margate to Manchester - but that's another story...

[ellendune]

If HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)) is to live up to its name (High Speed) it cannot stop at every IC^▸ (Inter City) station.  Stops need to be no less 50 miles apart on average and probably nearer 100 miles.  So if you want services to Wolverhampton it could only be a change at Birmingham. 

[inspector_blakey]

So let's get this straight Btline... You seem to want Cotswold Line services to burn from Worcester straight through to London with very few intermediate stops, thereby carrying around large numbers of empty seats from the passenger numbers that there aren't at the western end of the line. But you'd like HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)) to limp along calling at every significant settlement along the way...?