What is deemed acceptable?

[whole diary]

[LiskeardRich]

Following on from a post i made in somebody elses thread in another forum, where 5 pages later they are still discussing my post not the original thread question, thought i'd post here for peoples opinions?
here is the post i made:

What is deemed a reasonable or acceptable queuing time at a ticket office?
E.g I arrive at station ticket office queue at 1540, Train at 1605, the queue is slow moving and by 1600 i leave the queue to catch my train. I then Get on Train where no opportunity is made to buy a ticket. I reach my destination at 1640, I have to be at an important appointment 10 mins away at 1700. If i queue for 10 minutes, I have made reasonable effort to buy a ticket, however the TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) has not made a reasonable effort to sell me a ticket, due to inefficient ticket offices. Who's fault is it? I'd made 20 mins allowance at start station, and then 10 mins further at destination, plus a 35 minute journey. That would surely be a reasonable attempt to buy a ticket. What would happen if i was stopped leaving the station by an RPI^▸ (Revenue Protection Inspector (or Retail Price Index, depending on the context)), I'm assuming prosecution, but i'd made intent to buy tickets however i was unable to due to unreasonable queueng time, as the offence wording generally says about intent!

The scenario is purely hypothetical

[ChrisB]

As long as you -

a) got a witness to say you'd been queuing for 20 minutes
b) checked for a guard or such to purchase on the train
c) got a witness for the 10 mins at the end

I reckon any penalty fare could be successfully appealed.

But no proof, no win, I'm afraid.

[LiskeardRich]

Thanks Chris, the question was purely hypothetical, as it got so many replys yet no answers on the other forum, i thought it would be interesting to see the response on here. The other forum is showing many different and interesting replies. One reply said that SWTs^▸ (South West Trains) see queuing indefinitely as acceptable queue time

[ChrisB]

I think all TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) do, even though they all have targets to meet most of which are no more than 5 mionutes at peak times - it is only a target, not a guarantee.

I think the Penalty Appeal people would see it differently, but of course they need proof....

[bobm]

I had this situation about four years ago.  My proof was the pay and display ticket from the car park which showed I had parked the car 22 minutes before the train was due.  PF^▸ (Penalty Fare) was cancelled on appeal.

[JayMac]

Problems arise though when it isn't a Penalty Fare being issued.

What if you are stopped after giving up on buying a ticket at your destination, interviewed under caution, and a prosecution is instigated under the Regulation of Railways Act?

No reference to queuing standards in the RRA. The onus is on the passenger to pay for their journey when an opportunity was available. A long queue at the destination ticket office has not removed that onus on the passenger.

[LiskeardRich]

BNM nobody after 250 posts on the other forum has made such a sensible comment. (i see you have just made a comment on that thread/ forum actually)

another scenario, if someone turns up at station in more than enough time to buy a ticket, but encounters unusually long queues, misses train as a result, next train isnt for an hour, could they claim Delay Compensation, as they arrived at their destination late due to fault of insufficient ticketing facilities?

[JayMac]

In that scenario, I would certainly be complaining to the TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company). They don't have an obligation under Delay Repay or Customer/Passenger Charters to pay compensation for delays incurred while queueing. From a purely legal standpoint, you haven't actually formed a contract with the TOC yet. But they should be made aware if a particular location is failing to meet any published acceptable queueing times that TOC may have. Goodwill gestures would be the only compensation due.

Most, if not all, TOCs have a part of their Charter that mentions acceptable queuing times for purchasing tickets. None though state that you are free to board without a ticket if their queueing time standard is not being met. Some will sell Anytime fares onboard, however.

In Penalty Fares areas you may be successful appealing a PF^▸ (Penalty Fare) if you can prove that a queueing time standard was not being met. Again though, that doesn't remove the onus on the passenger to pay for their journey at the earliest opportunity. Bit of a catch 22 in some cases, but the law doesn't do shades of grey!

The laws and byelaws are very clear. You MUST be in possession of a valid ticket or other authority to travel and any purchase should be at earliest opportunity. So that's:

a) A ticket office or TVM^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) at your start station (if it's a TVM and the fare you want isn't available then you should purchase a fare that enables you to make part of your journey, then excess at the earliest opportunity).

b) A 'Permit to Travel' ticket if facilities exist to issue one. Again exchanging for the correct fare at the earliest opportunity.

c) On board a train if travelling from a station with no ticket buying facilities.

d) At your destination station if it has a ticket office and no earlier opportunity was available.

The only slight grey area is if your destination has no facilities and no earlier opportunity was available. I believe that in this case only you would not be required to buy a ticket. Leaving aside the argument, "How can I buy a ticket?!" - the law usually defines what a 'reasonable person' would do in a given circumstance. It would not be reasonable for you to go out of your way to seek somewhere to pay for your journey.

Hypothetical and 'what if' scenarios cannot be written into legislation. Cold hard facts are; you must pay for journey, and must make that payment at the earliest opportunity.

[broadgage]

As long as you -

a) got a witness to say you'd been queuing for 20 minutes
b) checked for a guard or such to purchase on the train
c) got a witness for the 10 mins at the end

I reckon any penalty fare could be successfully appealed.

But no proof, no win, I'm afraid.

Most ticket offices are equiped with CCTV^▸ (Closed Circuit Tele Vision), would examination of the recording count as proof of the queue time ?

[Mookiemoo]

I had that about six years ago at Egham

Was in plenty of time - about three hours early actually - no parking - tried Staines - no parking - back to Egham - waited until free space - queue at ticket office - literally ran onto the last train that would get me to putney for a crucial meeting - walked straight up to guy on barrier explained everything

Kerching - penalty fare

Think I've posted on here about it before

[ChrisB]

What if you are stopped after giving up on buying a ticket at your destination, interviewed under caution, and a prosecution is instigated under the Regulation of Railways Act?

They would first need to prove intent to defraud.

[ChrisB]

Most, if not all, TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) have a part of their Charter that mentions acceptable queuing times for purchasing tickets. None though state that you are free to board without a ticket if their queueing time standard is not being met. Some will sell Anytime fares onboard, however.

As I said earlier, that is purely a target, not anything close to a guarantee, and unenforcable against the TOC.

Most ticket offices are equiped with CCTV^▸ (Closed Circuit Tele Vision), would examination of the recording count as proof of the queue time ?

Unfortunately, that video belongs to the TOC - it wouldn't be available to you for a defence.

Was in plenty of time - about three hours early actually - no parking - tried Staines - no parking - back to Egham - waited until free space - queue at ticket office - literally ran onto the last train that would get me to putney for a crucial meeting - walked straight up to guy on barrier explained everything

Kerching - penalty fare

And I bet you lost any appeal?
It is your responsibility to park in good time - the TOCs are under no obligation to keep a space for your car.

[Tim]

Unfortunately, that video belongs to the TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) - it wouldn't be available to you for a defence.

If you are facing criminal charges the TOC wouldn't be obliged to give you a copy of the video?  If you were convicted in a trail where material evidence like that was withweld, that would be a miscariage of justice.  The police and CPS are certainly are obliged to disclose evidence that may be useful to the defence. 

[Brucey]

Access to CCTV^▸ (Closed Circuit Tele Vision) images is available by making a Subject Access Request under the Data Protection Act 1998 for the sum of ^10.

[ChrisB]

If you are facing criminal charges the TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) wouldn't be obliged to give you a copy of the video?  If you were convicted in a trail where material evidence like that was withweld, that would be a miscariage of justice.  The police and CPS are certainly are obliged to disclose evidence that may be useful to the defence. 

Indeed they would if they were using that video evidence themslves

Chances are that they wouldn't be calling that video as evidence, so they wouldn't need to release it to the defence.

But Brucey's comment does stand, if he's correct.