Train GraphicClick on the map to explore geographics
 
I need help
FAQ
Emergency
About .
No recent travel & transport from BBC stories as at 18:15 10 Jan 2025
Read about the forum [here].
Register [here] - it's free.
What do I gain from registering? [here]
 14/01/25 - Rail Sale starts
24/01/25 - Westbury Station reopens
24/01/25 - LTP4 Wilts / Consultation end
24/01/25 - Bristol Rail Campaign AGM 2025

On this day
10th Jan (2017)
Defibrillators discussion pack published by Network Rail (link)

Train RunningCancelled
15:52 London Paddington to Great Malvern
16:12 London Paddington to Bristol Parkway
16:32 Great Malvern to London Paddington
16:36 London Paddington to Plymouth
16:59 Cheltenham Spa to London Paddington
17:18 London Paddington to Swansea
17:20 London Paddington to Didcot Parkway
17:50 Cardiff Central to London Paddington
Additional 18:10 Bristol Temple Meads to Gloucester
19:04 Great Malvern to London Paddington
19:04 Didcot Parkway to London Paddington
Short Run
14:03 London Paddington to Penzance
14:20 Carmarthen to London Paddington
16:30 London Paddington to Taunton
17:03 London Paddington to Penzance
17:15 Exeter Central to Barnstaple
17:28 Weston-Super-Mare to London Paddington
17:52 London Paddington to Didcot Parkway
17:59 Cheltenham Spa to London Paddington
17:59 Gatwick Airport to Reading
18:04 Didcot Parkway to London Paddington
18:29 Gatwick Airport to Reading
18:38 Barnstaple to Exmouth
18:38 Didcot Parkway to London Paddington
19:04 Paignton to London Paddington
19:35 Exeter St Davids to London Paddington
22:50 Salisbury to Portsmouth Harbour
Delayed
15:03 London Paddington to Penzance
17:33 Barnstaple to Exeter Central
PollsThere are no open or recent polls
Abbreviation pageAcronymns and abbreviations
Stn ComparatorStation Comparator
Rail newsNews Now - live rail news feed
Site Style 1 2 3 4
Next departures • Bristol Temple MeadsBath SpaChippenhamSwindonDidcot ParkwayReadingLondon PaddingtonMelksham
Exeter St DavidsTauntonWestburyTrowbridgeBristol ParkwayCardiff CentralOxfordCheltenham SpaBirmingham New Street
January 10, 2025, 18:15:10 *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Forgotten your username or password? - get a reminder
Most recently liked subjects
[103] Thames Valley infrastructure problems causing disruption elsew...
[98] Westminster Hall debate : Railway services to South West
[97] Ryanair sues 'unruly' passenger over flight diversion
[87] Mick Lynch announces retirement as head of RMT
[41] Birthday trip, Melksham to Penzance - 28th January 2025
[22] A Beginner's Guide to the Great Western "Coffee Shop" Passenge...
 
News: the Great Western Coffee Shop ... keeping you up to date with travel around the South West
 
   Home   Help Search Calendar Login Register  
Pages: [1] 2
  Print  
Author Topic: What is deemed acceptable?  (Read 12251 times)
LiskeardRich
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 3494

richardwarwicker@hotmail.co.uk
View Profile
« on: August 23, 2011, 17:42:18 »

Following on from a post i made in somebody elses thread in another forum, where 5 pages later they are still discussing my post not the original thread question, thought i'd post here for peoples opinions?
here is the post i made:

Quote
What is deemed a reasonable or acceptable queuing time at a ticket office?
E.g I arrive at station ticket office queue at 1540, Train at 1605, the queue is slow moving and by 1600 i leave the queue to catch my train. I then Get on Train where no opportunity is made to buy a ticket. I reach my destination at 1640, I have to be at an important appointment 10 mins away at 1700. If i queue for 10 minutes, I have made reasonable effort to buy a ticket, however the TOC (Train Operating Company) has not made a reasonable effort to sell me a ticket, due to inefficient ticket offices. Who's fault is it? I'd made 20 mins allowance at start station, and then 10 mins further at destination, plus a 35 minute journey. That would surely be a reasonable attempt to buy a ticket. What would happen if i was stopped leaving the station by an RPI (Revenue Protection Inspector (or Retail Price Index, depending on the context)), I'm assuming prosecution, but i'd made intent to buy tickets however i was unable to due to unreasonable queueng time, as the offence wording generally says about intent!

The scenario is purely hypothetical
Logged

All posts are my own personal believes, opinions and understandings!
ChrisB
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 13033


View Profile Email
« Reply #1 on: August 23, 2011, 17:47:21 »

As long as you -

a) got a witness to say you'd been queuing for 20 minutes
b) checked for a guard or such to purchase on the train
c) got a witness for the 10 mins at the end

I reckon any penalty fare could be successfully appealed.

But no proof, no win, I'm afraid.
Logged
LiskeardRich
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 3494

richardwarwicker@hotmail.co.uk
View Profile
« Reply #2 on: August 23, 2011, 17:53:18 »

Thanks Chris, the question was purely hypothetical, as it got so many replys yet no answers on the other forum, i thought it would be interesting to see the response on here. The other forum is showing many different and interesting replies. One reply said that SWTs (South West Trains) see queuing indefinitely as acceptable queue time
Logged

All posts are my own personal believes, opinions and understandings!
ChrisB
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 13033


View Profile Email
« Reply #3 on: August 23, 2011, 17:56:12 »

I think all TOCs (Train Operating Company) do, even though they all have targets to meet most of which are no more than 5 mionutes at peak times - it is only a target, not a guarantee.

I think the Penalty Appeal people would see it differently, but of course they need proof....
Logged
bobm
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 10167



View Profile
« Reply #4 on: August 23, 2011, 18:06:48 »

I had this situation about four years ago.  My proof was the pay and display ticket from the car park which showed I had parked the car 22 minutes before the train was due.  PF (Penalty Fare) was cancelled on appeal.
Logged
JayMac
Data Manager
Hero Member
******
Posts: 19245



View Profile
« Reply #5 on: August 23, 2011, 21:35:42 »

Problems arise though when it isn't a Penalty Fare being issued.

What if you are stopped after giving up on buying a ticket at your destination, interviewed under caution, and a prosecution is instigated under the Regulation of Railways Act?

No reference to queuing standards in the RRA. The onus is on the passenger to pay for their journey when an opportunity was available. A long queue at the destination ticket office has not removed that onus on the passenger.
Logged

"A clear conscience laughs at a false accusation."
"Treat everyone the same until you find out they're an idiot."
"Moral indignation is a technique used to endow the idiot with dignity."
LiskeardRich
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 3494

richardwarwicker@hotmail.co.uk
View Profile
« Reply #6 on: August 23, 2011, 23:42:20 »

BNM nobody after 250 posts on the other forum has made such a sensible comment. (i see you have just made a comment on that thread/ forum actually)

another scenario, if someone turns up at station in more than enough time to buy a ticket, but encounters unusually long queues, misses train as a result, next train isnt for an hour, could they claim Delay Compensation, as they arrived at their destination late due to fault of insufficient ticketing facilities?
Logged

All posts are my own personal believes, opinions and understandings!
JayMac
Data Manager
Hero Member
******
Posts: 19245



View Profile
« Reply #7 on: August 24, 2011, 01:17:53 »

In that scenario, I would certainly be complaining to the TOC (Train Operating Company). They don't have an obligation under Delay Repay or Customer/Passenger Charters to pay compensation for delays incurred while queueing. From a purely legal standpoint, you haven't actually formed a contract with the TOC yet. But they should be made aware if a particular location is failing to meet any published acceptable queueing times that TOC may have. Goodwill gestures would be the only compensation due.

Most, if not all, TOCs have a part of their Charter that mentions acceptable queuing times for purchasing tickets. None though state that you are free to board without a ticket if their queueing time standard is not being met. Some will sell Anytime fares onboard, however.

In Penalty Fares areas you may be successful appealing a PF (Penalty Fare) if you can prove that a queueing time standard was not being met. Again though, that doesn't remove the onus on the passenger to pay for their journey at the earliest opportunity. Bit of a catch 22 in some cases, but the law doesn't do shades of grey!

The laws and byelaws are very clear. You MUST be in possession of a valid ticket or other authority to travel and any purchase should be at earliest opportunity. So that's:

a) A ticket office or TVM (Ticket Vending Machine) at your start station (if it's a TVM and the fare you want isn't available then you should purchase a fare that enables you to make part of your journey, then excess at the earliest opportunity).

b) A 'Permit to Travel' ticket if facilities exist to issue one. Again exchanging for the correct fare at the earliest opportunity.

c) On board a train if travelling from a station with no ticket buying facilities.

d) At your destination station if it has a ticket office and no earlier opportunity was available.

The only slight grey area is if your destination has no facilities and no earlier opportunity was available. I believe that in this case only you would not be required to buy a ticket. Leaving aside the argument, "How can I buy a ticket?!" - the law usually defines what a 'reasonable person' would do in a given circumstance. It would not be reasonable for you to go out of your way to seek somewhere to pay for your journey.

Hypothetical and 'what if' scenarios cannot be written into legislation. Cold hard facts are; you must pay for journey, and must make that payment at the earliest opportunity.
Logged

"A clear conscience laughs at a false accusation."
"Treat everyone the same until you find out they're an idiot."
"Moral indignation is a technique used to endow the idiot with dignity."
broadgage
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 5632



View Profile
« Reply #8 on: August 24, 2011, 07:22:50 »

As long as you -

a) got a witness to say you'd been queuing for 20 minutes
b) checked for a guard or such to purchase on the train
c) got a witness for the 10 mins at the end

I reckon any penalty fare could be successfully appealed.

But no proof, no win, I'm afraid.

Most ticket offices are equiped with CCTV (Closed Circuit Tele Vision), would examination of the recording count as proof of the queue time ?
Logged

A proper intercity train has a minimum of 8 coaches, gangwayed throughout, with first at one end, and a full sized buffet car between first and standard.
It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc.
A 5 car DMU (Diesel Multiple Unit) is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
Mookiemoo
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 3117


View Profile Email
« Reply #9 on: August 24, 2011, 10:37:36 »

I had that about six years ago at Egham

Was in plenty of time - about three hours early actually - no parking - tried Staines - no parking - back to Egham - waited until free space - queue at ticket office - literally ran onto the last train that would get me to putney for a crucial meeting - walked straight up to guy on barrier explained everything

Kerching - penalty fare

Think I've posted on here about it before

Logged

Ditched former sig - now I need to think of something amusing - brain hurts -I'll steal from the master himself - Einstein:

"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe."

"Gravitation is not responsible for people falling in love"
ChrisB
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 13033


View Profile Email
« Reply #10 on: August 24, 2011, 11:59:44 »

What if you are stopped after giving up on buying a ticket at your destination, interviewed under caution, and a prosecution is instigated under the Regulation of Railways Act?

They would first need to prove intent to defraud.
Logged
ChrisB
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 13033


View Profile Email
« Reply #11 on: August 24, 2011, 14:14:59 »

Most, if not all, TOCs (Train Operating Company) have a part of their Charter that mentions acceptable queuing times for purchasing tickets. None though state that you are free to board without a ticket if their queueing time standard is not being met. Some will sell Anytime fares onboard, however.

As I said earlier, that is purely a target, not anything close to a guarantee, and unenforcable against the TOC.

Most ticket offices are equiped with CCTV (Closed Circuit Tele Vision), would examination of the recording count as proof of the queue time ?

Unfortunately, that video belongs to the TOC - it wouldn't be available to you for a defence.

Was in plenty of time - about three hours early actually - no parking - tried Staines - no parking - back to Egham - waited until free space - queue at ticket office - literally ran onto the last train that would get me to putney for a crucial meeting - walked straight up to guy on barrier explained everything

Kerching - penalty fare

And I bet you lost any appeal?
It is your responsibility to park in good time - the TOCs are under no obligation to keep a space for your car.
Logged
Tim
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 2738


View Profile
« Reply #12 on: August 24, 2011, 14:36:33 »

Unfortunately, that video belongs to the TOC (Train Operating Company) - it wouldn't be available to you for a defence.


If you are facing criminal charges the TOC wouldn't be obliged to give you a copy of the video?  If you were convicted in a trail where material evidence like that was withweld, that would be a miscariage of justice.  The police and CPS are certainly are obliged to disclose evidence that may be useful to the defence. 
Logged
Brucey
Global Moderator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 2259


View Profile WWW
« Reply #13 on: August 24, 2011, 14:41:03 »

Access to CCTV (Closed Circuit Tele Vision) images is available by making a Subject Access Request under the Data Protection Act 1998 for the sum of ^10.
Logged
ChrisB
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 13033


View Profile Email
« Reply #14 on: August 24, 2011, 15:00:18 »

If you are facing criminal charges the TOC (Train Operating Company) wouldn't be obliged to give you a copy of the video?  If you were convicted in a trail where material evidence like that was withweld, that would be a miscariage of justice.  The police and CPS are certainly are obliged to disclose evidence that may be useful to the defence. 

Indeed they would if they were using that video evidence themslves

Chances are that they wouldn't be calling that video as evidence, so they wouldn't need to release it to the defence.

But Brucey's comment does stand, if he's correct.
Logged
Do you have something you would like to add to this thread, or would you like to raise a new question at the Coffee Shop? Please [register] (it is free) if you have not done so before, or login (at the top of this page) if you already have an account - we would love to read what you have to say!

You can find out more about how this forum works [here] - that will link you to a copy of the forum agreement that you can read before you join, and tell you very much more about how we operate. We are an independent forum, provided and run by customers of Great Western Railway, for customers of Great Western Railway and we welcome railway professionals as members too, in either a personal or official capacity. Views expressed in posts are not necessarily the views of the operators of the forum.

As well as posting messages onto existing threads, and starting new subjects, members can communicate with each other through personal messages if they wish. And once members have made a certain number of posts, they will automatically be admitted to the "frequent posters club", where subjects not-for-public-domain are discussed; anything from the occasional rant to meetups we may be having ...

 
Pages: [1] 2
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.2 | SMF © 2006-2007, Simple Machines LLC Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
This forum is provided by customers of Great Western Railway (formerly First Great Western), and the views expressed are those of the individual posters concerned. Visit www.gwr.com for the official Great Western Railway website. Please contact the administrators of this site if you feel that the content provided by one of our posters contravenes our posting rules (email link to report). Forum hosted by Well House Consultants

Jump to top of pageJump to Forum Home Page