What is the point of a day return?

[whole diary]

[ChrisB]

That 45p rate is considerably under-specified now. That was set a few years ago now when petrol was a lot cheaper.

A better comparison is the amount it would cost you to drive it, including congestion charge & parking

[JayMac]

According to the AA the current median pence per mile cost (mid priced car, mid range annual mileage) including all running costs and depreciation is 48.3 pence per mile. That's based on today's average price for a litre of unleaded at 136.59p

http://www.theaa.com/motoring_advice/running_costs/petrol2011.pdf

If you are commuting to London by car, then assuming 223 working days a year (5 day working week, less 25 days holiday, less 12 Bank Holidays) there's an additional ^2230 for congestion charges added to your unavoidable standing costs. That bumps up your pence per mile to 58.17p. You may have free employee parking at your place of work but if not your pence per mile is getting very near that headline 71p for the fare from Swindon.

And lets not forget that 71p per mile is for an Anytime Single or Return from Swindon to London, so hardly a fair comparison with either HMRCs or the AAs costs.

A weekly season ticket from Swindon - London with a Travelcard plus a 5 days car parking at Swindon Station will set you back ^236.30. Excluding any mileage on the Underground that works out at a pence per mile of 30.1p

An annual season travelcard plus an annual car park season will set you back ^9932*. Based on the aforementioned 223 working days that's a pence per mile 27.1p. And you've got a ticket valid for as many additional journeys along your line of route as you like.

And just how much compensation do you get if you are delayed by an hour or more on the roads?

Let the train take the strain. 


*This price is based on the annual rail season ticket from Swindon - London Zones 1-6 plus 12x 1 month car park seasons at Swindon Main Car Park. I can't find an online price for an annual car park season. Suffice to say if there is one it will most likely be cheaper than the 12x 1 month, further reducing the pence per mile cost.

[ellendune]

And lets not forget that 71p per mile is for an Anytime Single or Return from Swindon to London, so hardly a fair comparison with either HMRCs or the AAs costs.

A weekly season ticket from Swindon - London with a Travelcard plus a 5 days car parking at Swindon Station will set you back ^236.30. Excluding any mileage on the Underground that works out at a pence per mile of 30.1p

But i do not do the journey every day I have to go two or three times a month like many other people here who are trying to run a business here in Swindon.  I could park for ^12 a day in the hours I am there, but I still have to pay ^7.50 to park in Swindon.  So that is still more than 63p per mile.  for one of my regular visits I could park for free so that 71p per mile!

All you discounts seem to centre round a daily commuter for business to thrive in Swindon we need to get to London in the peak. 

[devon_metro]

Google reckons it would cost me approx ^22 in petrol costs to drive to London from Swindon in my car (return).

So thats ^30 with ^8 congestion charge.

Certainly more reasonable than ^109 on the train.

The argument about insurance and what not is really not relevant in this case, since I already own the car and insure it.

[JayMac]

But i do not do the journey every day I have to go two or three times a month like many other people here who are trying to run a business here in Swindon.  I could park for ^12 a day in the hours I am there, but I still have to pay ^7.50 to park in Swindon.  So that is still more than 63p per mile.  for one of my regular visits I could park for free so that 71p per mile!

All you discounts seem to centre round a daily commuter for business to thrive in Swindon we need to get to London in the peak. 

Fair enough. In your circumstances it would appear that you have little choice but to pay the ^109 Anytime return. That can be reduced to ^63.60 for a day return in both peaks by splitting at Didcot and Reading (and using a Routeing Guide easement) but that saving of comes with the disbenefit of limiting the trains you can catch to those that call at Didcot Parkway.

Google reckons it would cost me approx ^22 in petrol costs to drive to London from Swindon in my car (return).

So thats ^30 with ^8 congestion charge.

Certainly more reasonable than ^109 on the train.

The argument about insurance and what not is really not relevant in this case, since I already own the car and insure it.

^10 congestion charge, plus parking. And fixed costs (insurance, Vehicle Excise Duty, depreciation) along with other running costs are relevant if you want an accurate comparison when calculating and comparing car versus train pence per mile.


And be thankful you don't have to travel from Westbury - Paddington in the peaks. That's 83.3 pence per mile!

[Btline]

Urgh - no. The fixed costs apply whether I drive up to London or park at Swindon station. Any vehicle running costs other than petrol are going to be tiny relatively speaking. The car isn't going to magically disappear, even if I walk to the station!

Parking in London eh? Ok - the train fare should also have the price of parking at Swindon added to it. Which is ^8.40! Bloody hell - that's almost as much as the congestion charge!

The fare to Swindon is appalling (a season is HIGHER than a Liverpool to London season**) and should be AXED down to a more suitable fare immediately!

_{* according to http://en.parkopedia.co.uk/parking/carpark/swindon_station_main/sn1/swindon/
**according to http://fairfares4swindon.wordpress.com/season-ticket-scandal/}

[devon_metro]

^10 congestion charge, plus parking. And fixed costs (insurance, Vehicle Excise Duty, depreciation) along with other running costs are relevant if you want an accurate comparison when calculating and comparing car versus train pence per mile.

Fair point if you want an 'accurate' figure, however, most people who use the train probably also own a car, particularly those who can afford to commute from the West Country to London!

If I were to go to London tomorrow, by train, then I would still have my car sat on the drive and i'd still be paying for all the various things it costs me. As such I consider taking the train an additional cost since I am effectively wasting a resource.

As it happens, my car is reasonably economical and I struggle to spend more on petrol vs a like for like train journey. I now usually only travel by train if I can get some bargain Advance Purchase tickets. i.e. if i'm travelling to Southampton I can get tickets for as little as ^3.30 with a railcard.


The fixed costs for my car this year have been ^795 + 135 + 30 = 960.
If we assume I live in Swindon and each trip to London cost me ^50, then 20 trips would cost me ^1,960.

Similar journeys by train would cost ^2180. This of course assumes I live within walking distance of Swindon station, not to oncur other costs!

[Ollie]

The fare to Swindon is appalling (a season is HIGHER than a Liverpool to London season**) and should be AXED down to a more suitable fare immediately!

_{* according to http://en.parkopedia.co.uk/parking/carpark/swindon_station_main/sn1/swindon/
**according to http://fairfares4swindon.wordpress.com/season-ticket-scandal/}

Do note however that the fare quoted for Liverpool to London is only valid on London Midland.

[Btline]

Ooo - that would take a while...

Still - my point still stands.

[JayMac]

_{**according to http://fairfares4swindon.wordpress.com/season-ticket-scandal/}

Nice misleading table of fares there. The Swindon Any Permitted fares have been compared with route or operator specific fares. For example the fares from Bristol and Bath are those routed via Salisbury. The fare from Liverpool is London Midland only. The fare from Southampton is Southern Only and the 7 day price is wrong. On 07/01/2011 it was ^98.

I don't disagree that rail travellers from Swindon pay a relatively high price to get to London but to fail to compare like for like products is disingenuous and misleading.

Fair point if you want an 'accurate' figure, however, most people who use the train probably also own a car, particularly those who can afford to commute from the West Country to London!

If I were to go to London tomorrow, by train, then I would still have my car sat on the drive and i'd still be paying for all the various things it costs me. As such I consider taking the train an additional cost since I am effectively wasting a resource.

As it happens, my car is reasonably economical and I struggle to spend more on petrol vs a like for like train journey. I now usually only travel by train if I can get some bargain Advance Purchase tickets. i.e. if i'm travelling to Southampton I can get tickets for as little as ^3.30 with a railcard.

The fixed costs for my car this year have been ^795 + 135 + 30 = 960.
If we assume I live in Swindon and each trip to London cost me ^50, then 20 trips would cost me ^1,960.

Similar journeys by train would cost ^2180. This of course assumes I live within walking distance of Swindon station, not to oncur other costs!

Points conceded. I was using the AA's pence per mile figures which are of course based on averages. As is the way with such calculations - YMMV^▸ (Your Method/Mileage May Vary). 

[Andrew1939 from West Oxon]

What the above blogs go to show is that "there are lies, damned lies and statistics". In other words you can use figures very selectively to prove what you want to prove - something that government statisticians are very good at. Many years ago one of my jobs for which I had been volunteered by my boss, was to calculate the mileage rate for the Local Government Association. These rates were applied to people using their car on local authority business. The basic "essential user" rate assumed that you first had to buy a car for work purposes, which as has been pointed out elsewhere, is not always the case, but in many cases was so when a married couple already had a car that the partner used regularly but perhaps the claimant had no need of to get to work. Every possible expense went into that calculation from Depreciation of a new car, loss of interest on capital, insurance (including the extra costs of work use cover) to licence and maintenance and wear and tear plus fuel and ended up with a very high mileage rate. If as many people did, only owned one car that was also used for personal and family use out of work hours, it meant that most of your personal car use could be financed from your car allowance claims. AA car rates are calculated very much on these assumptions. High train fares would never have come up to that car mileage rate and could therefore be made to look good value by comparison. However if you calculate a car mileage rate by your marginal costs of running the car, i.e. fuel, car parking and a modest contribution to standing costs, car use can look exceptionally cheap against rail fares.

The problem that faces all public transport is that it is very difficult to make a real comparison between modes. For most people the standing costs of owning a car (depreciation, interest on capital, insurance and licence etc, once they have been paid for are then forgotton when comparing the costs of using their car compared with rail or bus fare. Public transport costs are simply enormous compared with most people's marginal costs of using the car. Add in the flexibility of using the car when you want to without reference to the discipline of timetables and ignoring the personal costs of tiredness and frustration with traffic delays that road users accept but often complain about for rail, you can understand why public transport has such a small proportion of all travellers in this country and why the roads are so often so congested.

[JayMac]

And another important factor as to why the car often wins when it is an option versus rail: Personal space.

[Btline]

I'll hold my hands up. Normally I am very suspicious of stats. However in this instant I just read them, GASPED, and then posted on here without checking (why alarm bells didn't ring when Liverpool was cheaper...). Lesson learnt! However, I still think the comparison with Oxford is justified. And remember that Chiltern's fare to Oxford is likely to be lower - but Swindon has no other operator or route (unless somone starts an Open Access from Melksham to London!)

But the fact is, people buy the fare, so it will remain.

There are always pros and cons of driving. With London, traffic and parking will always lean me towards rail. That's why the prices are high!

So sorry Bignosemac.

[LiskeardRich]

Urgh - no. The fixed costs apply whether I drive up to London or park at Swindon station. Any vehicle running costs other than petrol are going to be tiny relatively speaking. The car isn't going to magically disappear, even if I walk to the station!

it depends how often you are driving the route though, and if you work on route. Also depends what you drive, for me the 71p a mile stated above for the route, is a slightly cheaper than many larger cars.
I drive a Saab 2.3 petrol turbo, yes i wouldnt use it if i was commuting such mileage, and would consider a diesel alternative. Which magazine state a 3 year old version of my car costs 76.4p a mile taking into consideration all wear and tear, depreciation, insurance, tax servicing costs (based on main dealer service costs at recommended miles interval).
Which magazine publicise on their website, running costs per mile taking into consideration all normal costs that can be incurred, and i can confirm it is significantly higher than HMRC's 45p a mile for nearly everything on the road barring little 1.1s and similar

[ellendune]

I once questioned FGW^▸ (First Great Western) over the difference in fares for a similar 1hr journey and then told me it was because Swindon gets far more frequent services than Oxford! But that doesn't make any difference to me.

I looked up peak morning trains and the service looks very similar in frequency and duration of journey.

Fair enough. In your circumstances it would appear that you have little choice but to pay the ^109 Anytime return. That can be reduced to ^63.60 for a day return in both peaks by splitting at Didcot and Reading (and using a Routeing Guide easement) but that saving of comes with the disbenefit of limiting the trains you can catch to those that call at Didcot Parkway.

Not come accross a double split before can you explain that one please?