What is the point of a day return?

[whole diary]

[ellendune]

What is the point of a day return? 

Why should it be any cheaper to travel just because you are coming back on the same day?

Does it have any benefits for balancing demand? - if so I cannot see what it is?

Why are they only available for some journeys.  It is the availablity of the day return from Didcot to London, but not from Swindon to London that makes the Didcot split so beneficial. 

If we are going to simplify the ticketing system then surely this is one ticket that could go, or if it has some use, be made universally available. 

[6 OF 2 redundant adjunct of unimatrix 01]

yes i would be glad to pay more for a return for my day trip,the month long validity more than makes up for my extra cash..... not

[paul7575]

One major reason for a day return is to allow discounted return travel without too much room for repeat (fraudulent) travel.  In a large area of the southeast it is the only return available, ie for places around 35 -40 miles apart.  Because the return half of Offpeak returns has a fairly long validity, it was found that people would use them repeatedly until the ticket was marked by a ticket inspector.

Demand can be (and often is) spread out by having slightly different time restrictions on return and day return, or different evening peak restrictions.

Paul

[super tm]

I would point out that the Anytime day return is a regulated fare and hance virtually impossible to abolish.  There would be some seriously bad headlines for the government if they did so.

Its one of the aonomalies of privatisation that Anytime day returns were regulated but anytime returns (valid for a month) were not.  At privatisation a return from Oxford to London was not significantly cheaper than a return from Swindon to London.  Both are about an hours journey time.  But the fare from Oxford happened to be a day return and is now ^51 but the fare from Swindon was an open return and is now ^109 - a huge difference.

[ellendune]

I would point out that the Anytime day return is a regulated fare and hance virtually impossible to abolish.  There would be some seriously bad headlines for the government if they did so.

Its one of the aonomalies of privatisation that Anytime day returns were regulated but anytime returns (valid for a month) were not.  At privatisation a return from Oxford to London was not significantly cheaper than a return from Swindon to London.  Both are about an hours journey time.  But the fare from Oxford happened to be a day return and is now ^51 but the fare from Swindon was an open return and is now ^109 - a huge difference.

yes i would be glad to pay more for a return for my day trip,the month long validity more than makes up for my extra cash..... not

Thats what I am getting at.  It seems those of you who can get a day return are being heavily subsidised by those of who cannot.  At the moment there are circumstances when if there is a small group of us it is cheaper to get a taxi from Swindon to London than take the train!

I see there may be an advantage in reducing fraud, but surely proper ticket inspections would achive the same end. 
No one has yet given me a load balancing reason to have them

If there were no day returns (and so the anytime became the regulated fare I assume) then FGW^▸ (First Great Western) would not be able penalise those of us who happen to live outside the old NSE^▸ (Network South East) area. On the other hand if they are so great then extend them to the whole network!

[paul7575]

If there is a wide difference it is purely down to FGW^▸ (First Great Western)'s policies.

Comparing SWT^▸ (South West Trains)'s Southampton to London fares, they are:

Anytime Return at ^68.80, Anytime Day Return is ^68.20

Offpeak Return at ^37.20, Offpeak Day Return is ^36.80

Paul

[ellendune]

If there is a wide difference it is purely down to FGW^▸ (First Great Western)'s policies.

Comparing SWT^▸ (South West Trains)'s Southampton to London fares, they are:

Anytime Return at ^68.80, Anytime Day Return is ^68.20

Offpeak Return at ^37.20, Offpeak Day Return is ^36.80

Yes but both fares are available there!  There is no Day Return from Swindon to London!

I would point out that the Anytime day return is a regulated fare and hance virtually impossible to abolish.  There would be some seriously bad headlines for the government if they did so.

So what is the regulated fare when there is no day return?

Demand can be (and often is) spread out by having slightly different time restrictions on return and day return, or different evening peak restrictions.

Can somone explain how a day return restriction helps spread the load.

[JayMac]

There are day return fares to London from Swindon:

One Day Anytime Travelcard: ^114.50
One Day Off Peak Travelcard ^53.00
One Day Super Off Peak Travelcard ^44.00

With those, I suspect a small group travelling on GroupSave will be cheaper than a taxi to and from London.

Still cheaper to split at Didcot though!

[ellendune]

There are day return fares to London from Swindon:

One Day Anytime Travelcard: ^114.50
One Day Off Peak Travelcard ^53.00
One Day Super Off Peak Travelcard ^44.00

With those, I suspect a small group travelling on GroupSave will be cheaper than a taxi to and from London.

Still cheaper to split at Didcot though!

Those are just the Day Travelcard add-ons to the Anytime Open Return to London.  They can make no contribution to spreading the load!

I will have to look into GroupSave though - good point.

[JayMac]

The One Day Travelcard products from Swindon aren't just the walk-up fares with a day travelcard add-on. They're cheaper than the separate tickets.

A Zones 1-6 Travelcard costs ^15.00 peak and ^8.00 off peak.

[bobm]

Having just walked though the door after a night out at Winnersh Triangle (dont ask) it does seem slightly perverse that the off peak day return from Swindon to Didcot Parkway is ^9.40 while the off peak from Didcot to Winnersh Triangle is ^6.40. Mind you still better that the ^21 all in one ticket.

Some very late trains out of London Paddington because of a fatality at Ealing Broadway. I got home on a heavily delayed Cardiff service. I got home before the train I planned to catch had reached Reading. That begs another question. With split tickets what's the position with disruption at the end of the day?  Are they only honour bound to get me to Didcot or all the way to Swindon?

[devon_metro]

Having just walked though the door after a night out at Winnersh Triangle (dont ask) it does seem slightly perverse that the off peak day return from Swindon to Didcot Parkway is ^9.40 while the off peak from Didcot to Winnersh Triangle is ^6.40. Mind you still better that the ^21 all in one ticket.

Some very late trains out of London Paddington because of a fatality at Ealing Broadway. I got home on a heavily delayed Cardiff service. I got home before the train I planned to catch had reached Reading. That begs another question. With split tickets what's the position with disruption at the end of the day?  Are they only honour bound to get me to Didcot or all the way to Swindon?

Swindon - however (assuming there is one) they will make you wait till the next train that stops at Didcot, however a combination of tickets counts as one journey, so they have to get you there eventually!

[JayMac]

d_m is correct. Split tickets do not reduce any rights you have under the National Rail Conditions of Carriage in the event of delays, cancellations or being stranded because of those delays or cancellations. This even applies when one or more of your split tickets is an Advance Purchase.

[IainH]

Heresy though it might be to say, part of this is a British Rail legacy issue. A long time ago, day returns were available for most journeys (I recall buying several Glasgow - London day returns in the 80's) and then along came the saver. It was marketed as 'like a cheap day return, only it lasts a month'. And from that time day returns were roughly restricted to journeys under 50 miles - although there are exceptions in both directions. Of course it soon became obvious that a saver cost more than the cheap day return did - although not to the extent it is today. It made sense then, though, as there was only the equivalent of the anytime period return (full fare) or the day return (cheap fare), and for many journeys there was a fares gap in between which the saver filled. (And advance tickets did not exist then).
The bit that baffles me about the fraud angle is that until a few years ago, most ex NSE^▸ (Network South East) flows had the period return of 5 days validity - "Network Awaybreak". Then it largely was moved to have a months validity, same as the saver. This would give more room for fraud rather than less. In any case the train companies could help themselves on this, e.g by having barriers stamp dates on return halves or making the guards use sensible ticket punches rather than scrawls that mean nothing (but thats another thread....).

[Btline]

There is an lm guard who felt tip pens the date onto all period returns.

I do think it should be simplified. Perhaps axe all day fares- but I suspect it would be used to put fares up! They certainly need to make a single half a return (or at the least 55%). More barriers and PROPER checks would prevent fraud.