Siemens gets Thameslink new trains order

[whole diary]

[Chris from Nailsea]

From the St Albans & Harpenden Review:

Thameslink makes Harpenden spelling error to 'Harpenthen' as electric Class 700 train unveiled at Excel Centre


Thameslink makes ^Harpenthen^ spelling error as new train unveiled

While the Government unveiled a new Thameslink train, which will run on the line from 2016 yesterday, tongues were set wagging when it was noticed Harpenden was spelled incorrectly.

During the unveiling of the mock-up of the new state-of-the-art electric Class 700 train, which is to offer more frequent services to St Albans, it appeared Harpenden had been spelled ^Harpenthen^ on the train map.

The typo could not be changed in time for the grand unveiling at the Excel Centre.

Roger Perkins for First Capital Connect said: "This mock-up of the exciting new Thameslink train was shipped over from Germany where it was created. The passenger information screen is just a mock-up of the real thing and its manufacturers were unable to correct the typo in time for the grand unveiling."

The Government said its ^6.5 billion Thameslink programme would provide more frequent services from St Albans and 30 per cent more seats because of a 50 per cent increase in carriages.

On the Thameslink north services Midland Mainline fast trains that run between St Albans and London, over the full three hour AM peak the number of services will increase from 18 to 24. While the Midland Mainline slow train will see services increase from 17 to 24 over the full 3 hour peak.

[onthecushions]

Probably correct phonetically for a German speaker.

Just imagine what the Japanese will make of Western names when IEP^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project.) mock-ups arrive!

OTC

[grahame]

Just imagine what the Japanese will make of Western names when IEP^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project.) mock-ups arrive!

[Southern Stag]

I presumme the 700s are noraml seating are they 2 by 2 or 2 by 3? With TFL^▸ (Transport for London) the main sponsors of Crossrail we'll be lucky to get any 2 by 2 or 2 by 3 seating it will be all 378, S stock longitudinal seating and no loos.

That's why Chiltern are now busier than ever between Amersham and Harrow

The 700s have all 2+2 seating. I'm sure Crossrail seating has been discussed before, from the indicative seating capacity of the Crossrail units it is simply not possible for them to have all longitudinal seating, it just wouldn't mean enough seats to meet the requirements. Chiltern being busier between Amersham and Harrow has more to do with the new Metropolitan line timetable which removes fast services Off-Peak than the new stock.

[paul7575]

Crossrail is specified as 450 seats per 10 car, 200m train.  An average of 45 seats per car, but a slightly lower number in the two end cars and significantly less in the DDA^» (Disability Discrimination Act - about) vehicles, of which I believe there are at least two.

So a 'normal' Crossrail carriage should probably have nearly 50 seats.  To fit 50 seats and have increased stand back areas around doors requires a majority of 2+2 seating.  For comparison 378s average 36 seats per car - this must include the 'perch seats' by the doors from what I've seen.

Suggesting Crossrail will be just like 378s doesn't stand up to scrutiny, I'm afraid.

Paul

[ChrisB]

2+2, with a small area of 2+1 in one coach to provide even more standing area (read bike space off-peak)

Frankly, the trains are built for the short commute. Woe behold anyone wanting Peterborough/Cambridge/Bedford to Gatwick, for example. You will get a very numb bum.

Like the Met S-stock, definitely NOT built for 60+ min commutes....but for the central London part of the route.

When I can find time, I'll pr^cis the hand-out given to me yesterday - you had to ask as they were removed from the public time.

[IndustryInsider]

THe interesting piece from the Cabinet Office above includes -

In addition, the new generation of trains will release existing rolling stock for use elsewhere on the network, particularly as further routes are electrified, for example in the north west of England and the Thames Valley commuter lines.

So, first confirmation direct from Government that refurbed (hopefully!) 319s will be used in the Thames Valley.....

Is it though?  There are Class 377s that will be released, not just Class 319s.  I reckon that 319s will go up north and you may well see Class 377s cascaded to the GWML^▸ (Great Western Main Line).

[ChrisB]

that's true. Do we know roughly how many of each there are currently?

Possibly able to work out which as FGW^▸ (First Great Western) won't want to maintain both unless they absolutely have to....

[paul7575]

There are exact numbers of what has to be released, and when (at least in terms of pure numbers of AC, DC^▸ (Direct Current) or dual voltage stock), in table 5.4.3 on page 76 in the TSGN franchise ITT^▸ (Invitation to Tender).   There is also a planned transfer of 25 x 4 car EMUs^▸ (Electric Multiple Unit) from the combined franchise to Southeastern.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/245041/invitation-to-tender.pdf

The plans include the release of the class 387 trains (29 units/116 vehicles) that are only recently ordered and are known to be with Thameslink for only a short time, possibly around 2 years, these have  early cascade planned.  Reading between the lines in various other stuff such as RUSs^▸ (Route Utilisation Strategy), and because they are 110 mph capable, I think it more likely that they will come to FGW^▸ (First Great Western), and the 319s will all go up north.

There is also an option for another 30 or more four car 387s.

NB I think the 387s were generally referred to as '377/8's before the ITT was published - I think they are probably the same trains as the '377's mentioned by IndustryInsider above.

Paul

[ChrisB]

I didn't think that the 387s were going to be ready in time to come to the GW^▸ (Great Western) after electrification?

[paul7575]

I didn't think that the 387s were going to be ready in time to come to the GW^▸ (Great Western) after electrification?

Some will be available by the end of 2016 - I suppose it depends on whether we should expect enough EMUs^▸ (Electric Multiple Unit) of a single type to be available to the GW routes to work the entire relevant timetable from day 1, or if there will be some sort of DMU^▸ (Diesel Multiple Unit)/EMU transition over a couple of years...

They may also yet order more 387s to be used on the GW from new of course...

Paul

[ChrisB]

I don't expect an immediate switch-over - more a move over to EMU^▸ (Electric Multiple Unit) as whole routes become available, such as PAD^» (Paddington (London) - next trains)-RDG^‡(resolve). Although FGW^▸ (First Great Western) could decide to wait until say, the whole TV area is complete.

What they won't want, I'm sure is a mixture of EMUs - they'll want all one variety - whether 319s, 377s or 387s

[John R]

I didn't think that the 387s were going to be ready in time to come to the GW^▸ (Great Western) after electrification?

I believe the 387's will be available in 2015, so I don't see the 2016 date being an issue, unless it's the delivery of the Class 700s which is the constraining factor.

With regard to the Thameslink stock, I thought I read somewhere that there will be two internal configurations, effectively metro and outer suburban?

[ChrisB]

definitely not, according to the staff at the event. All the same, either 8car or 12car fixed formation.

So adding a car when the 8cars need start to need them isn't going to be easy.

[Network SouthEast]

Chris, I am curious as to why you think adding extra cars to the 8 car class 700s is going to be hard? Siemens make a song and dance that the Desiro City (which this train is) that it can be reconfigured as part of their "single car concept". Secondly, the DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) said in their techincal spec for Thameslink that the 8 cars must be able to be upgraded to 12 cars.

Meanwhile there are quite a few photos from a user of the Flickr site of the internal mock-up. In another album there are also photos of the seating plan.