Suggestions for later services on the Cotswolds Line

[whole diary]

[IndustryInsider]

There's no shortage of theatre at Stratford-Upon-Avon just a stones throw up the road from Moreton of course, but I take your point.  Though one issue is the staffing of the signalboxes overnight.  The situation has varied several times over recent years from the boxes staying open all night to closing from around midnight to 5am, so it would need an undertaking from Network Rail to ensure they were always open.

[ChrisB]

Hmmm - the RSC is pretty specialised theatre. ONly a small percentage enjoy Shakespeare!

[Buckham]

I'd like to see a return from Paddington around the 11pm mark.  9.48 is too early for a night out in London. I normally travel from Honeybourne, but if returning late from London I drive to Banbury. Last train from Marylebone is around 11.50, but I would drive to Moreton and go from there if there were a later train.

[Chris from Nailsea]

Meanwhile ...

Is the Worcester Hereford line open 24x7? If not it would surely be closed by the time such a train got to it.

Thanks for your first post, dzug - and may I offer you a rather belated warm welcome to the Coffee Shop forum!

Chris. 

[Ollie]

23:20 would make sense if doing it, means people could go to theatre or something. Most shows tend to finish around half 10 or so.

[animationmilo]

23:20 would make sense if doing it, means people could go to theatre or something. Most shows tend to finish around half 10 or so.

23:20 to Hereford all the way would be wonderful, They could stable at Hereford from like 02:40am, lets say it took 3 hours 20 minutes. And use the set on the 05:34am London Paddington. They wouldnt have to move ECS^▸ (Empty Coaching Stock) about.

[JayMac]

Not just stabling though. What about routine maintenance, cleaning etc? Then there's the need to get the crew from Bristol to Hereford.

[willc]

I'm at a loss when it comes to trying to work out what would be wonderful about arriving in Hereford at something like 2.30am. Not very wonderful for the train crew who would have been working an empty train since Charlbury or Moreton-in-Marsh. Not very wonderful for the bottom line and utterly unrealistic given the number of signalboxes that would have to stay open deep into the night.

Loadings on the existing 21.48 are minimal west of Oxford - they used to fit into a two-car Turbo with dozens of seats to spare, with the current use of an HST^▸ (High Speed Train) being a positioning move for the morning - and the numbers travelling west of Moreton-in-Marsh are tiny. It may be worth experimenting with extending a later train past Oxford to turn back at either Charlbury or Moreton on Friday and Saturday nights but I'm afraid the demand for journeys further west at that time of night just is not there, however nice an idea it may appear in theory.

[bambam]

My aunt lives in Worcester and wonders why there isn't a later train from London so you can get back from a show. Worcester itself isn't particularly well served by theaters and the like and they would be some demand for a train. I agree that the easiest way of doing this would be extending an London Oxford train however this may effect the unit diagrams. I think standardization of the times and making the last service leave later is a good idea too. 

[willc]

Why? Because the numbers of people wanting a service all the way from London to Worcester at that time of night are not sufficient to justify the costs involved. Just the taxi back to Oxford for the train driver would probably eat up any fares income all by itself.

Go see a matinee - or to Birmingham - would be my advice. And I can think of many places that would like to have Malvern's theatres on their doorstep.

And if you think Worcester is hard done by, consider the following:

Chiltern's last train to stations north of Banbury from Monday to Thursday is 22.20, so not that different from the Cotswold Line's 21.48. On Fridays only Chiltern run a 23.10 to Warwick Parkway and a 23.54 as far as Leamington. On Saturdays and Sundays the 22.00 to Birmingham is the last service north of Banbury.

After the 21.43 from Euston, Virgin run all of two Birmingham services, at 22.30 and 23.30 - to a place 10 times the size of Worcester, calling at Milton Keynes and Coventry along the way.

[bambam]

I'm not saying that isn't poor. Im just saying there may be more demand than you would expect. Many places the size of Worcester and Malvern combined?

[Richard Fairhurst]

The last departure from Oxford to Banbury (and intermediate stations) on a Saturday night is at 23.47. Granted, it's a bus, but nonetheless if it's worth providing a service to little Tackley at that time I can't see why not Charlbury or Kingham.

In my experience the 21.48 is very well loaded from Oxford to Charlbury most nights - certainly better than most trains outside the obvious peak. On Fridays and Saturdays it's very busy. I've had a few chats with people here over the past few days (I know, I know, the plural of anecdote is not data ) and they strongly suggest that there's a lot of latent demand for an extra service.

To Worcester or Hereford? I doubt it very much. But if an Oxford terminator could be extended to Moreton, in much the same way as the mid-afternoon train has been, and an early morning train will be to Charlbury (in December)... I think it would be both popular and affordable.

[ChrisB]

That bus is very well loaded too, I'm on it quite often.

It used to be a train in Thames Trains days - unfortunately, engineering works /Rules of the Route caused bustitution too rdgularly, and the bus was included in the Rules.

I've tried to get it back as a train, with no luck as it'll need the Rules changing.

[willc]

Im just saying there may be more demand than you would expect. Many places the size of Worcester and Malvern combined?

There may be more - perhaps on a Friday or Saturday night - but never anything like enough to justify the expense and you can't plan a regular train service on the basis that people might, occasionally, like to travel back very late from London. And if you were going to Malvern as well, that's another two signalboxes you need to keep open.

Maybe if the signalling eventually transfers to Didcot, with just one person needed to run the route, plus one at Worcester, then it might be more feasible, but until then the odd extension at the eastern end of the line is the only thing likely to happen.

Granted, it's a bus, but nonetheless if it's worth providing a service to little Tackley at that time I can't see why not Charlbury or Kingham

That bus is very well loaded too

They provide the service because the franchise says they must, not because of overwhelming demand from Tackley. And what exactly does "well-loaded" mean? A 50-seater coach with two or three dozen people on board may indeed look well-loaded - I would hardly apply the same description to two or three dozen people on a 180-seat Turbo, never mind a 500-seat HST^▸ (High Speed Train).

And more to the point, does anyone actually check tickets on this bus (I've never been asked to show a ticket once while boarding scheduled or unscheduled road replacement coaches to or from Oxford in 10 years) or is it just that the locals have worked out it's a good way to get a free ride home at FGW^▸ (First Great Western)'s expense?

I'm sure Charlbury is worth a try with a later train, though again Richard and I may have to differ on what constitutes "well-loaded". The bulk of the demand on the 21.48 past Oxford has always been to Hanborough and Charlbury and if there were an even later train that would be no different.

However, there is the passage of the 21.51 from Hereford to factor in, which needs both platform 2 at Charlbury (where the turnback is) and the single line to Oxford, so you are looking at either a 23.2x or a 23.5x departure from Oxford. Is the first enough of a gap after the 21.48 leaves Oxford at 22.52 to bother with? And if a 23.2x ended at Charlbury you would need a lightning-fast turnround to get back to Oxford out of the way of that train from Hereford.

Going all the way to Moreton-in-Marsh with either a 23.2x or a 23.5x means keeping two signalboxes open well after midnight to return the empty train to Oxford. And most of the 3,500 souls in Moreton are tucked up in bed long before the 21.48 gets here at present - a later train will not turn us all into 24-hour party people.

[ChrisB]

That bus regularly has 40+ passengers on it - indeed I have alerted FGW^▸ (First Great Western) to this after 3 successive loadings of 45 recently. They have chosen to forward any overflow by taxi, rather than lay on a standy bus, which I think is sensible.

The later Cotswold train would have to be a turbo, and demand shown by the time the DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) gets around to drawing up the new franchise - i.e. Very soon. Anyone know what the current Rules of the Route has for opening times?

Because you won't get that changed in time for the new franchise spec...