Train GraphicClick on the map to explore geographics
 
I need help
FAQ
Emergency
About .
No recent travel & transport from BBC stories as at 10:55 10 Jan 2025
Read about the forum [here].
Register [here] - it's free.
What do I gain from registering? [here]
 24/01/25 - Westbury Station reopens
24/01/25 - LTP4 Wilts / Consultation end
24/01/25 - Bristol Rail Campaign AGM 2025
28/01/25 - Coffee Shop 18th Birthday

On this day
10th Jan (2017)
Defibrillators discussion pack published by Network Rail (link)

Train RunningCancelled
09:59 Oxford to London Paddington
10:15 London Paddington to Cardiff Central
12:50 Cardiff Central to London Paddington
Short Run
07:40 Penzance to Cardiff Central
Delayed
06:48 London Paddington to Carmarthen
08:15 Penzance to London Paddington
An additional train service has been planned to operate as shown 12:36 Bristol Temple Meads to Cardiff Central
PollsThere are no open or recent polls
Abbreviation pageAcronymns and abbreviations
Stn ComparatorStation Comparator
Rail newsNews Now - live rail news feed
Site Style 1 2 3 4
Next departures • Bristol Temple MeadsBath SpaChippenhamSwindonDidcot ParkwayReadingLondon PaddingtonMelksham
Exeter St DavidsTauntonWestburyTrowbridgeBristol ParkwayCardiff CentralOxfordCheltenham SpaBirmingham New Street
January 10, 2025, 10:59:28 *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Forgotten your username or password? - get a reminder
Most recently liked subjects
[112] Ryanair sues 'unruly' passenger over flight diversion
[56] A Beginner's Guide to the Great Western "Coffee Shop" Passenge...
[54] Thumpers for Dummies
[44] Westminster Hall debate : Railway services to South West
[41] Bristol Rail Campaign AGM 2025
[40] Railcard Prices going up
 
News: A forum for passengers ... with input from rail professionals welcomed too
 
   Home   Help Search Calendar Login Register  
Pages: 1 [2] 3
  Print  
Author Topic: GREAT WESTERN ELECTRIFICATION  (Read 18554 times)
ChrisB
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 13031


View Profile Email
« Reply #15 on: June 12, 2011, 10:43:36 »

I'm sure WAG» (Welsh Assembly Government - about) will fund it....
Logged
paul7575
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 5335


View Profile
« Reply #16 on: June 12, 2011, 11:41:41 »

I think this whole dilema of whther to have bi modes and as i understand it the IEP (Intercity Express Program / Project.) will have underfloor power packs in some coaches or loco hauled with engine changes at the end of the wires.

They will have underfloor power packs.  The decision has been made surely?

If they'd gone for engine changes (or diesel hauled EMUs (Electric Multiple Unit)) they wouldn't be getting so much all round grief...

Paul
« Last Edit: June 12, 2011, 11:48:23 by paul7755 » Logged
ChrisB
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 13031


View Profile Email
« Reply #17 on: June 12, 2011, 11:47:10 »

I'm sure it has!
Logged
Rhydgaled
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1500


View Profile WWW
« Reply #18 on: June 12, 2011, 12:14:57 »

Some excellent points, I wonder if the WAG» (Welsh Assembly Government - about) have been to the EU» (European Union - about) to beg for money to pay for the wires to Swansea & the valleys  yet?

Well, if WAG canceled the few miles of extra lane on the Heads Of The Valleys Road they could pretty much fund 60 3-car Electrostars and wiring of the whole ValleyLines network, including Maesteg, Ebbw Vale, Swanline and Cardiff to Cheltenham. Unfortunatlly they have signed the contract for the first half of HOTVR, still if they put the remaining half up for the rail project would the EU provide match funding to bring the total back up to the required ^600m? That would leave the Westminister government only having to find the money to wire Swindon to Cheltenham to eliminate any need for bi-mode IEP (Intercity Express Program / Project.), the only dificulty being Weston-Super-Mare having a reduced number of direct services to London (and possibly insufficent deisel locos to drag the IEP from Bristol as well as the 5 East Coast drags) if you route the Paddington to Taunton and beyond via Bristol services via Westbury instead to reduce the distance the IC125s run under the wires.
Logged

----------------------------
Don't DOO (Driver-Only Operation (that is, trains which operate without carrying a guard)) it, keep the guard (but it probably wouldn't be a bad idea if the driver unlocked the doors on arrival at calling points).
willc
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 2330


View Profile
« Reply #19 on: June 12, 2011, 12:38:58 »

Quote
maybe it's no longer true...
No, it's not. Distributed power with a diesel at one end for IEP (Intercity Express Program / Project.) is dead. As I said, because they finally realised it simply wouldn't work in a full-length train and changed the design - again.

Just to be absolutely clear for anyone who has missed it, the current IEP plan, no doubt subject to yet more change, is to buy five-car bi-modes with underfloor diesel engines, five-car electrics and eight-car electrics, which will all propel themselves. No diesel locos.

Quote
its not every eight mins is it tho.... and i said something 'like'

a. What else is like a Class 70 or 66? They were designed by GE and EMD for a very specific purpose - heavy freight. If you want something to drag around light passenger trains at speed and with rapid acceleration, you would start with a blank sheet of paper, not a class 70. And people are very quick to condemn bi-mode trains, from which you could potentially remove diesel engines as wires extend, but not quite so quick with suggestions as to what you would do with all these diesel locos they would have us build instead, should more wires go up - and would the wires actually ever be extended were we to shell out for such locos?

b. Typical station to station times on the Cotswold Line, from the September draft timetable: Oxford to Hanborough, 10 minutes; Hanborough to Charlbury, seven minutes; Charlbury to Kingham, nine minutes (Shipton stops are allowed a generous seven and six-minute split on this leg); Kingham to Moreton-in-Marsh, eight minutes; MiM to Honeybourne, 11 minutes, Honeybourne to Evesham, seven minutes; Evesham to Pershore, eight minutes, Pershore to Worcester shrub Hill, 13 minutes. Average interval nine minutes, oh dear me, i do apologise for being a whole minute out.

Are you really trying to suggest that working any type of diesel train on that type of schedule constitutes a recipe for not running at high power much of the time, never mind any gradients that apply? And there is obvious scope to reduce those times, some trains are already shown in the draft as a minute or two quicker on some legs, so in reality eight minutes is a perfectly reasonable figure to work with.

Quote
The trouble with our network is that most if not all lines should be electrified as they they are in Holland and Belgium who have a similar dense network of relatively short main lines all linking up.

We don't have a dense network of relatively short main lines - certainly not in Low (and rather small) Countries terms - not least the GWML (Great Western Main Line), which is a long spindly thing, with assorted branches feeding into the trunk route. And the same can be said for ECML (East Coast Main Line) and WCML (West Coast Main Line) - where to this day lots of the feeder lines remain unwired.

HM Treasury is the Government department that actually matters in all this, not the DfT» (Department for Transport - about). The Treasury is not going to be allowing anyone to go around issuing bonds that could count against the Government's balance sheet, however you dress it up. And we're not France.

Rhydgaled. There are lots of difficulties with your plan, relying as it does on fantasy rolling stock building programmes and fleet reshuffles, ignoring why certain of the West Country trains run via Bristol, that WAG» (Welsh Assembly Government - about) cannot spend money in England and that there may well be perfectly valid reasons to widen the Heads of the Valleys road - not least that there is no alternative rail route available to do the journeys it allows.
Logged
6 OF 2 redundant adjunct of unimatrix 01
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 2754



View Profile Email
« Reply #20 on: June 12, 2011, 14:15:03 »

this is the last thing im saying about this will as i dont wish to argue... i have already stated that i threw an idea out there and after you told everyone why it wouldnt work i accepted that and moved on.... there really is no need to carry on, the only last thing i will say is 'since when were the hst's designed for stop start 8 min intervals? and did i imagine fgw hiring in class 67's
Logged
willc
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 2330


View Profile
« Reply #21 on: June 12, 2011, 19:47:50 »

If you're going to 'throw an idea out there' maybe you might care to back it up with some reasoning. And no, HSTs (High Speed Train) weren't exactly designed for the kind of things they now have to do all over the FGW (First Great Western) network every day, but the world has changed, travel patterns have changed, driven in large part by the journey times cuts made possible by HSTs, and they are reasonably well suited to take on the challenge, having lightweight, relatively high-power, high-acceleration (for diesel) traction units, which bear no resemblance a Class 70. And just like an HST, 67s are really designed for long-haul running (on now non-existent mail and parcels trains) at speed, not start-stop. At least working for Chiltern they can stretch their legs a bit, which they wouldn't on the Cotswold Line.
Logged
ChrisB
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 13031


View Profile Email
« Reply #22 on: June 12, 2011, 20:56:54 »

I don't tjink FGW (First Great Western) has had 67s, no.
Logged
Tim
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 2738


View Profile
« Reply #23 on: June 12, 2011, 21:02:02 »

I'm sure WAG» (Welsh Assembly Government - about) will fund it....

WAG has renamed itself WG (Welsh Government)
Logged
Tim
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 2738


View Profile
« Reply #24 on: June 12, 2011, 21:04:26 »


They will have underfloor power packs.  The decision has been made surely?


Correct.  They will have underfloor engines.  Even the "all electric" trains will have one underfloor power-pack per 8 or 9 coaches (for emergency and depot use).  The bi-mode will have 3 power packs per 5 coaches.
Logged
ChrisB
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 13031


View Profile Email
« Reply #25 on: June 12, 2011, 22:27:56 »

I think I heard they'd added a fourth....
Logged
Not from Brighton
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 108


View Profile
« Reply #26 on: June 13, 2011, 00:02:56 »

Even the "all electric" trains will have one underfloor power-pack per 8 or 9 coaches (for emergency and depot use).

That'll be handy on the ECML (East Coast Main Line) then, what with the wires there being somewhat prone to failure.
Logged
Not from Brighton
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 108


View Profile
« Reply #27 on: June 13, 2011, 00:21:53 »

Distributed power with a diesel at one end for IEP (Intercity Express Program / Project.) is dead. As I said, because they finally realised it simply wouldn't work in a full-length train and changed the design - again.
Does anyone know why this is?
I did see some horrible performance figures for some of these designs but I can't figure out why this is such a challenge.
Surely a small number of larger engines should be more efficient and cheaper to maintain than many small ones? I know that shifting several MW of oompf from one end of a train to another is no mean feat, but this has been solved on TGV (Train a Grande Vitesse) for decades (and on Eurostar if you need to fit UK (United Kingdom) loading gauge) and you need to solve this problem on the full electric model anyway. Surely the fact that the vast majority of vehicles would be identical between electric and bi-mode would be the final nail in the coffin?
I'm sure there is something that I don't understand that swings it in favour of under-slung engines. Is there perhaps a problem with having a non-passenger carrying vehicle in the formation? Would it need to fit on the platform?

I'm just a curious engineer by the way, not making a case here...
Logged
willc
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 2330


View Profile
« Reply #28 on: June 13, 2011, 01:26:59 »

Roger Ford of Modern Railways (steady ChrisB!) did a pretty through demolition job on the electric power car plus diesel power car version of the IEP (Intercity Express Program / Project.). As far as I can recall he basically did a lot of sums that showed it would not perform on diesel at the level an HST (High Speed Train) does now, whatever Hitachi claimed. Perhaps not surprising with one engine versus two in an HST. And in order to produce a relatively lightweight 125mph four-axle passenger train vehicle, you are pretty limited in the size of diesel engine you could use.

TGVs (Train a Grande Vitesse) do not have distributed power. The traction motors are just on the power cars and the end bogies of the adjacent passenger coaches. The rooftop cable is to distribute power from the pantograph to the power cars.

Quote
I'm sure there is something that I don't understand that swings it in favour of under-slung engines. Is there perhaps a problem with having a non-passenger carrying vehicle in the formation?


Having an entire vehicle in a five-coach formation full of a diesel engine and alternator, as was proposed at one stage, would have been a bit of a problem, given the train's pitiful passenger capacity in such a configuration.
Logged
JayMac
Data Manager
Hero Member
******
Posts: 19245



View Profile
« Reply #29 on: June 13, 2011, 02:48:47 »

The traction motors are just on the power cars and the end bogies of the adjacent passenger coaches.

Small pedantic point. That's only true of the older TGV (Train a Grande Vitesse) PSE (Paris Sud Est) sets. They have 12 DC (Direct Current) traction motors. The newer TGV Atlantique, R^seau, Duplex and POS (Paris-Eastern France-Southern Germany) sets have 8 three-phase AC synchronous traction motors on the power cars only.
Logged

"A clear conscience laughs at a false accusation."
"Treat everyone the same until you find out they're an idiot."
"Moral indignation is a technique used to endow the idiot with dignity."
Do you have something you would like to add to this thread, or would you like to raise a new question at the Coffee Shop? Please [register] (it is free) if you have not done so before, or login (at the top of this page) if you already have an account - we would love to read what you have to say!

You can find out more about how this forum works [here] - that will link you to a copy of the forum agreement that you can read before you join, and tell you very much more about how we operate. We are an independent forum, provided and run by customers of Great Western Railway, for customers of Great Western Railway and we welcome railway professionals as members too, in either a personal or official capacity. Views expressed in posts are not necessarily the views of the operators of the forum.

As well as posting messages onto existing threads, and starting new subjects, members can communicate with each other through personal messages if they wish. And once members have made a certain number of posts, they will automatically be admitted to the "frequent posters club", where subjects not-for-public-domain are discussed; anything from the occasional rant to meetups we may be having ...

 
Pages: 1 [2] 3
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.2 | SMF © 2006-2007, Simple Machines LLC Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
This forum is provided by customers of Great Western Railway (formerly First Great Western), and the views expressed are those of the individual posters concerned. Visit www.gwr.com for the official Great Western Railway website. Please contact the administrators of this site if you feel that the content provided by one of our posters contravenes our posting rules (email link to report). Forum hosted by Well House Consultants

Jump to top of pageJump to Forum Home Page