GREAT WESTERN ELECTRIFICATION

[whole diary]

[stebbo]

I know this subject has come up, in sorts, in other posts - but when the Paddington - Oxford - Bristol - Cardiff routes get electrified what happens with with the Worcester/Hereford and Gloucester/Cheltenham routes, and indeed with other important routes such as Exeter/Plymouth/Penzance and Cardiff/Swansea?

I know there's all the talk about bi-mode trains but, call me old-fashioned, seems a hugely expensive/clumsy way to go about things. Seems to me:

1. Oxford/Worcester/Hereford and Swindon/Gloucester/Cheltenham and others become "Turbotised" or "Adelante-cised" - latter not necessarily so bad if the reliability were fixed except the need to change trains which I think would be totally retrograde;

2. There's a lot of diesels running under the wires as happens on the ECML^▸ (East Coast Main Line) and WCML^▸ (West Coast Main Line) - silly really; or

3. Extend the wires - and (forgive me) redouble the whole of the Cotswold line and Worcester/Hereford - makes sense in the long term and might have economic benefits.

OK, I'm no engineer but comments/ideas

[Electric train]

Cotswold line will not meet the requirements of a business case required by the ORR^» (Office of Rail and Road formerly Office of Rail Regulation - about).  The route North of Oxford to Birmingham / Coventry and or routes to Plymouth would be higher on the list of routes in the GW^▸ (Great Western) area.

[Rhydgaled]

I know this subject has come up, in sorts, in other posts - but when the Paddington - Oxford - Bristol - Cardiff routes get electrified what happens with with the Worcester/Hereford and Gloucester/Cheltenham routes, and indeed with other important routes such as Exeter/Plymouth/Penzance and Cardiff/Swansea?

I know there's all the talk about bi-mode trains but, call me old-fashioned, seems a hugely expensive/clumsy way to go about things. Seems to me:

1. Oxford/Worcester/Hereford and Swindon/Gloucester/Cheltenham and others become "Turbotised" or "Adelante-cised" - latter not necessarily so bad if the reliability were fixed except the need to change trains which I think would be totally retrograde;

2. There's a lot of diesels running under the wires as happens on the ECML^▸ (East Coast Main Line) and WCML^▸ (West Coast Main Line) - silly really; or

3. Extend the wires - and (forgive me) redouble the whole of the Cotswold line and Worcester/Hereford - makes sense in the long term and might have economic benefits.

OK, I'm no engineer but comments/ideas

I suggested making the Cotswolds line (Oxford to Worcester/Hereford) Turbos to Oxford (or possibly Reading) on here once, and it didn't go down well. Bi-mode trains (or Adelantes under the wires between Paddington and Oxford) probablly really are the only option for that route (although perhaps a few busy services, where 5-car is not sufficent, could retain life-extended IC125s until their 2035 deadline). In my opinion though, even if you go for bi-mode rather than Adelante operation, that doesn't mean a new order of bi-modes is necessary. A cascade of Voyagers from Virgin, by suppling them with more Pendolinos, and pantograph cars for the whole Voyager fleet, might just do it. Swansea is more complicated, if it were electrified a fair amount of the stock would probablly have to be bi-mode anyway because of the weekly diversion when the Severn Tunnel is closed. That means Cheltenham to Swindon and Severn Tunnel Junction would likely also need electrifing. Everything from Paddington to beyond Taunton, in my opinion, remain in the hands of Intercity 125s, so if Swansea and Cheltenham are wired I think that leaves Weston-Super-Mare as the only route I haven't thought up an alternative to IEP^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project.) bi-mode for yet.

[6 OF 2 redundant adjunct of unimatrix 01]

We have seen loco hauled sets with a dvt at the other end .... can we not have a diesel loco at one end and an electric loco that can act as a dvt at the other end so that under the wires its electric and west of england its diesel.... this gives the benifits of adding/removing capacity and quiet comfortable running with no engines underneath.... building a none engined carriage would cost alot less than one for a dmu or emu, there are other benifits.... if a dmu fails thats it service canceled, if a loco fails (subject to another being nearby) the service can be saved ..... im not saying this would work for local services and branch lines where dmu's are without doubt the best option

also.... and i do hesitate to put this but i dont want to start a new topic.... i really think xc should go back to loco hauled with the voyagers being split between swt for the west of england line and fgw for cardiff pompy, freeing up the 159's for fgw and northern to try and get rid of the pacers or at least have the pacers restricted to branch lines

[eightf48544]

We have seen loco hauled sets with a dvt at the other end .... can we not have a diesel loco at one end and an electric loco that can act as a dvt at the other end so that under the wires its electric and west of england its diesel.... this gives the benifits of adding/removing capacity and quiet comfortable running with no engines underneath.... building a none engined carriage would cost alot less than one for a dmu or emu, there are other benifits.... if a dmu fails thats it service canceled, if a loco fails (subject to another being nearby) the service can be saved ..... im not saying this would work for local services and branch lines where dmu's are without doubt the best option

Far too sensible an option especialy as Bombardiar are coming upi with the ideal diesel loco the TRAXX ME. ME standing for multi engine 4 automotive caterpillar engine which switch in out as power is required. Ideal for the Cotswold line trains. Farst push by electric loco to Oxford you'd need a DVT^‡(resolve) then pull by TRAXX ME to Wocester, lots of stops and uphill and down dale so full power is not needed for a lot of the journey. just like the Bournmouth Weymouth service after 67.

[anthony215]

I also agree about just using a diesel locomotive when the wires end rather than go for bi-mode. I think there are a few people in the industry who will agree.
.
Pity they wont just order the full electric sets for the east coast mainline then transfer some of the class 91 & mk4 sets to work the London - Swansea services

[eightf48544]

Does anyone know why the Inverness and ABerdeen out of Kings Cross are HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train) rather than 91 to Edinburgh and diesel from there. Presumably there weren't enough Mark 4 sets to lose a couple for many hours and there were HST sets going spare after electrification

[Not from Brighton]

They used to have a novel solution on the Weymouth line. Extra-powerful 4-car EMU^▸ (Electric Multiple Unit) pushes another 8 unpowered "multiple units" with cab ends to the end of the electric. The train is then split leaving the EMU behind whilst the 8 un-powered cars are pulled to Weymouth by a diesel loco. Reverse in the opposite direction. Apparently this worked well.

Also Virgin used to pull pendelinos to Hollyhead using diesel locos. I went on one once, it was very slow.

Perhaps there is a need for a more potent diesel unit to pull all these EMUs around once they're out from under the wires. Deltic anyone?

[6 OF 2 redundant adjunct of unimatrix 01]

i would think something like a class 70 or probably even a class 66/67 could do the diesel end..... and then you would just need a electric loco that could also work as a dvt .... and under the wires if the diesel is up front if its possible to use the diesel as a dvt in some kind of low power mode?

[willc]

The Cotswold Line will not be wired until the XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) route from Birmingham to Bristol and the Birmingham Snow Hill-Worcester services are electrified. Given that the Snow Hill services are about to get a brand-new dmu fleet and XC wiring is some way down the queue of future prospects, don't hold your breath.

Rhydgaled, just send a letter to the DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) telling them where they are going wrong and spare us yet another rendition of your theories.

We have seen loco hauled sets with a dvt at the other end .... can we not have a diesel loco at one end and an electric loco that can act as a dvt at the other end so that under the wires its electric and west of england its diesel

They tried that with one of the many previous incarnations of the IEP^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project.) design, then had to admit that you simply couldn't get enough traction power out of the diesel end to shift a full-length train.

lots of stops and uphill and down dale so full power is not needed for a lot of the journey

Eh? Lots of stops and full power is not needed for a lot of the journey? What do you think an HST^▸ (High Speed Train) is using after all those stops to get back up to line speed? And apart from odd short bits of level track the line is a continuous climb from Wolvercot to north of Moreton-in-Marsh for westbound trains and a roller-coaster through the Vale of Evesham for eastbound services before you hit Campden bank. The route is hard work for diesels - illustrated by the ill-starred period of Class 31 operation in the 1970s. They simply weren't up to it - too heavy and not enough power.

Does anyone know why the Inverness and ABerdeen out of Kings Cross are HSTs rather than 91 to Edinburgh and diesel from there

Because BR^▸ (British Rail(ways)) realised that constantly coupling and uncoupling locos from sets of coaches led to lots of problems with the time division multiplex connections needed to drive the locos from driving van trailers. Keep locos and rolling stock semi-permanently coupled (also done on the WCML^▸ (West Coast Main Line) pre-Pendolinos) and you pretty much eliminate the problem. In any case, I don't think it was ever intended that the Mk4s would work with diesel traction off the core ECML^▸ (East Coast Main Line) route. The idea was the 91 could be uncoupled from them and used at night on freight and parcels, hence the blunt-end driving cabs.

Also Virgin used to pull pendelinos to Hollyhead using diesel locos. I went on one once, it was very slow.

It's Holyhead and Pendolinos. And Virgin still do, every Saturday. The speed has as much to do with the prevailing limits on the North Wales coast line as the locos used. It is not a racetrack.

i would think something like a class 70 or probably even a class 66/67 could do the diesel end

Purpose-designed heavy freight locos or a track-bashing Bo-Bo intended for long-distance high-speed parcels work. Just the ticket for stops and starts every eight minutes. Not.

[6 OF 2 redundant adjunct of unimatrix 01]

its not every eight mins is it tho.... and i said something 'like'

[pbc2520]

We have seen loco hauled sets with a dvt at the other end .... can we not have a diesel loco at one end and an electric loco that can act as a dvt at the other end so that under the wires its electric and west of england its diesel

They tried that with one of the many previous incarnations of the IEP^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project.) design, then had to admit that you simply couldn't get enough traction power out of the diesel end to shift a full-length train.

And importantly, you don't need to have the traditional loco/dvt arrangement to achieve the user requirement of quite carriages.  It's sufficient to have distributed traction (motors) powered an engine elsewhere.

I assumed that was actually the plan based on http://www.agilitytrains.com/agilitytrains_caseforiep.htm, which mentions

• "Bi-mode Super Express Trains (formations that include a diesel engine)..."  Note singular engine.
• "The bi-mode variant will support progressive expansion of electrified network and can be converted to full electric capability once electrification is complete."  Surely that precludes multiple diesel units.
• "There will be a reduction in interior noise levels."

So hopefully our ears will get a smooth ride too!

Except, I see that the above page is not accessible from the main site, so maybe it's no longer true...

[6 OF 2 redundant adjunct of unimatrix 01]

well, while i agree its possible to have quiet powered carriages , i was more driving at the fact that unpowered ones could cost less.... but if there is no diesel loco in existence that can do this, then there is little point in discussing it more, i had an idea it had no merit

[eightf48544]

I think this whole dilema of whther to have bi modes and as i understand it teh IEP^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project.) will have underfloor power packs in some coaches or loco hauled with engine changes at the end of teh wires.

As for their being no suitable diesel locos then I think the TRAXX Multi Engine is way forward. I anm sure it will not be long before oterh manugafactures produce something similar and possibly better. As Ian Walmsey says in his article it's only putting  a four car DMU^▸ (Diesel Multiple Unit) in one box.

The trouble with our network is that most if not all lines should be electrified as they they are in Holland and Belgium who have a similar dense network of relatively short main lines all linking up. . Hopefully once we get GWML^▸ (Great Western Main Line) and MML^» (Midland Main Line. - about) electrified the absurbities of leaving Penzance and Swansea,  Bristol Birmingham Derby, Marylebone Banbury/Aylesbury, Oxford to Birmingham via Banbury and Worcester with Stratford as well as part of the ex GW^▸ (Great Western) Birmingham Sububan electrifcation. Will hopefully become apparent even to the DFT^▸ (Department for Transport).

In fills such as Ore - Ashford, Uckfield Redhill Guildford Ash Wokingham Reading Basingstoke, TV branches including Greenford branch (served by Crossrail via Ealing and North Acton (interchange with Central Line)  plus GOB and other London links  will be essential, Just these alone would eliminate miles of diesel working. 

Before someone says there is no money OUR BANKS could issue 5% 25 year Electrification  bonds which would be snapped up by the institutions. Don't say it's against EU^» (European Union - about) rules ingore them like the French. In fact the EU could pay for GOB as it goes through some of the most deprived Boroughs in London.

[anthony215]

I think this whole dilema of whther to have bi modes and as i understand it teh IEP^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project.) will have underfloor power packs in some coaches or loco hauled with engine changes at the end of teh wires.

As for their being no suitable diesel locos then I think the TRAXX Multi Engine is way forward. I anm sure it will not be long before oterh manugafactures produce something similar and possibly better. As Ian Walmsey says in his article it's only putting  a four car DMU^▸ (Diesel Multiple Unit) in one box.

The trouble with our network is that most if not all lines should be electrified as they they are in Holland and Belgium who have a similar dense network of relatively short main lines all linking up. . Hopefully once we get GWML^▸ (Great Western Main Line) and MML^» (Midland Main Line. - about) electrified the absurbities of leaving Penzance and Swansea,  Bristol Birmingham Derby, Marylebone Banbury/Aylesbury, Oxford to Birmingham via Banbury and Worcester with Stratford as well as part of the ex GW^▸ (Great Western) Birmingham Sububan electrifcation. Will hopefully become apparent even to the DFT^▸ (Department for Transport).

In fills such as Ore - Ashford, Uckfield Redhill Guildford Ash Wokingham Reading Basingstoke, TV branches including Greenford branch (served by Crossrail via Ealing and North Acton (interchange with Central Line)  plus GOB and other London links  will be essential, Just these alone would eliminate miles of diesel working. 

Before someone says there is no money OUR BANKS could issue 5% 25 year Electrification  bonds which would be snapped up by the institutions. Don't say it's against EU^» (European Union - about) rules ingore them like the French. In fact the EU could pay for GOB as it goes through some of the most deprived Boroughs in London.

Some excellent points, I wonder if the WAG^» (Welsh Assembly Government - about) have been to the EU to beg for money to pay for the wires to Swansea & the valleys  yet?