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Author Topic: McNulty Report on the UK rail network published  (Read 31694 times)
Zoe
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« Reply #30 on: May 20, 2011, 08:45:21 »

I very much doubt that anyone is going to stump up the cash to convert HST (High Speed Train)'s to power operated doors (and a form of Passcom which doesnt apply the brakes) at this stage in their lives so they will continue to be crew operated until they are withdrawn.
How are they going to remain in service beyond 2020 then?  They would need to meet the disability discrimination rules.
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« Reply #31 on: May 20, 2011, 09:05:59 »

I very much doubt that anyone is going to stump up the cash to convert HST (High Speed Train)'s to power operated doors (and a form of Passcom which doesnt apply the brakes) at this stage in their lives so they will continue to be crew operated until they are withdrawn.
How are they going to remain in service beyond 2020 then?  They would need to meet the disability discrimination rules.
Probably by fitting upgraded door locks onto the existing slam doors and inside door handles. I'm not sure power operated doors are actually a strict requirement to meet the disability regs in all honesty.

As there is no useable access between the driving cab and the passenger accomodation on HST's DOO (Driver-Only Operation (that is, trains which operate without carrying a guard))-P operation is not an option, whether fitted with power operated doors or not.
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« Reply #32 on: May 20, 2011, 09:10:10 »


 Is DOO (Driver-Only Operation (that is, trains which operate without carrying a guard)) anywhere west of Reading an option, (under current rules/regulations)
 without major expense ?
 
 
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« Reply #33 on: May 20, 2011, 09:20:50 »


 Is DOO (Driver-Only Operation (that is, trains which operate without carrying a guard)) anywhere west of Reading an option, (under current rules/regulations)
 without major expense ?
 
 

It depends on whether you could get away extending the LTV (London [and] Thames Valley) style operation with mirrors etc. Modern practice uses LCD screens in the cabs and enhanced CCTV (Closed Circuit Tele Vision) on the trains themselves and I really actually doubt that the expense of fitting all that kit outweighs the savings in guards wages, bearing in mind the guards can also be used to collect revenue. I doubt the current LTV 'mirrors' style DOO-P would be allowed on new routes in all honesty.


As far as DOO-P on non track circuit block lines is concerned it would be a very brave individual required as far as signing that method of working off as safe is concerned. I do not think McNulty is going to be the person that does that in all honesty. Therefore the branch lines cannot run DOO-P as the TCB (Track Circuit Block) track mileage on most of them is practically non existent.
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Zoe
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« Reply #34 on: May 20, 2011, 10:26:00 »

As there is no useable access between the driving cab and the passenger accomodation on HST (High Speed Train)'s DOO (Driver-Only Operation (that is, trains which operate without carrying a guard))-P operation is not an option, whether fitted with power operated doors or not.
Does the second member of staff have to be a guard though?  I was on service formed by two Voyagers once, the customer service host was alone in one of the two Voyagers.
As far as DOO-P on non track circuit block lines is concerned it would be a very brave individual required as far as signing that method of working off as safe is concerned. I do not think McNulty is going to be the person that does that in all honesty. Therefore the branch lines cannot run DOO-P as the TCB (Track Circuit Block) track mileage on most of them is practically non existent.
The report talked about the acceleration of plans for consolidation of signalling so the days of AB are numbered.
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« Reply #35 on: May 20, 2011, 12:50:13 »

As there is no useable access between the driving cab and the passenger accomodation on HST (High Speed Train)'s DOO (Driver-Only Operation (that is, trains which operate without carrying a guard))-P operation is not an option, whether fitted with power operated doors or not.
Does the second member of staff have to be a guard though?  I was on service formed by two Voyagers once, the customer service host was alone in one of the two Voyagers.
However all of the doors on both portions are under the overall control of a guard who directs the driver when to release and close the doors, having observed that it is safe to do so. As such the entire train is under the overall charge of the guard. Furthermore the passcom's on Voyagers are of the sort that do not apply the brakes, therefore the train can be bought to a controlled stop somewhere where the operation of the passcom can be investigated safely. Once the passcom is pulled on a HST it comes to a stop, be it on Royal Albert Bridge or in the bottom of the Severn Tunnel. Totally undesireable for DOO-P and potentially very dangerous, end of.

McNulty has thrown a number of cost saving ideas into the hat for discussion, nowhere have I read that he is prepared to sign any or all of these ideas off as a safe method of working, he seems to want the industry to do that for itself. As such it remains to be seen if any or all of his ideas are actually accepted and put into place.


 
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« Reply #36 on: May 20, 2011, 12:56:05 »

As far as DOO (Driver-Only Operation (that is, trains which operate without carrying a guard))-P on non track circuit block lines is concerned it would be a very brave individual required as far as signing that method of working off as safe is concerned. I do not think McNulty is going to be the person that does that in all honesty. Therefore the branch lines cannot run DOO-P as the TCB (Track Circuit Block) track mileage on most of them is practically non existent.
The report talked about the acceleration of plans for consolidation of signalling so the days of AB are numbered.
Which means that in the short term the railway will have to find a huge amount of money to replace signalling which might not be at the end of its economic life in order to remove guards from trains. I am not convinced that the public once they are made aware of the problems that this creates will neccessarily be in favour of guards being removed from trains and being left to fend for themselves in an emergency until the train can be stopped somewhere suitable to deal with the emergency.
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« Reply #37 on: May 20, 2011, 13:58:23 »

McNulty has thrown a number of cost saving ideas into the hat for discussion, nowhere have I read that he is prepared to sign any or all of these ideas off as a safe method of working, he seems to want the industry to do that for itself. As such it remains to be seen if any or all of his ideas are actually accepted and put into place.

I quite agree with that statement.  Some, if not most, will not be implemented fully or fall by the wayside completely and there will be massive unrest and resistance from the Unions.  It will be interesting to hear how and what the Government decides to implement when it publishes its proposals later in the year.

I personally don't think we'd ever be in a position where long distance services on the GWML (Great Western Main Line) (or ECML (East Coast Main Line)/WCML (West Coast Main Line) for that matter) will run as DOO (Driver-Only Operation (that is, trains which operate without carrying a guard)) though.  But there are some quite easy DOO extensions that could take place though; Reading to Basingstoke, and Reading to Gatwick are two local examples that could be done fairly easily on FGW (First Great Western) for example. 
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« Reply #38 on: May 20, 2011, 14:00:00 »

All the turbo workings...
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bobm
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« Reply #39 on: May 20, 2011, 14:15:18 »

I thought on occasions all FGW (First Great Western) turbo services with the possible exception of the Marlow branch have the potential to run as DOO (Driver-Only Operation (that is, trains which operate without carrying a guard)). I'm sure I've been on stoppers from Oxford and Newbury with only a driver.  Can't say I've experienced it on the North Downs line admittedly.
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« Reply #40 on: May 20, 2011, 14:20:35 »

As far as the Turbo operated LTV (London [and] Thames Valley) routes are concerned, the following are the only non-DOO (Driver-Only Operation (that is, trains which operate without carrying a guard)) routes:

  • Reading to Basingstoke
  • Reading to Gatwick
  • Bourne End to Marlow
  • Oxford to Hereford
Which is why I mentioned the first two as quick and easy as the other two would mean changes to current rules/operating practices.
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« Reply #41 on: May 20, 2011, 14:24:23 »

When he looked at the entire London inner suburban network, he can't have failed to notice that SWT (South West Trains) are pretty much alone in having guards on all their relevant trains, and he'll also have noticed that they do not undertake any revenue duties at all.

I suspect that has likely been the main reason for his DOO (Driver-Only Operation (that is, trains which operate without carrying a guard)) comments, and all the various reasons that normally prevent its use in rural areas, such as lack of full TCB (Track Circuit Block) signalling and CSR (Cab Secure Radio) etc are not relevant in those areas.

Paul
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« Reply #42 on: May 20, 2011, 14:29:58 »

The lack of a Cab Secure Radio will of course no longer become an issue preventing DOO (Driver-Only Operation (that is, trains which operate without carrying a guard)) when the GSM-R (Global System for Mobile communications - Railway.) network goes live over the whole country (mid-2014).  The southern half of the UK (United Kingdom) goes live mid-2012.
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« Reply #43 on: May 20, 2011, 14:37:42 »


  • Reading to Basingstoke
  • Reading to Gatwick


Is there any particular reason why these were not included when the other areas were made DOO (Driver-Only Operation (that is, trains which operate without carrying a guard)) possible?
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ChrisB
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« Reply #44 on: May 20, 2011, 14:41:28 »

Those on a hobby-horse for re-nationalisation can dismount.....from the full report....

QUOTE
21.4 Renationalisation
A number of arguments have been put forward to support renationalisation.
First, the costs of the rail industry have increased since
privatisation. It is argued by some that this shows that privatisation
has not achieved its overarching objective of cost efficiency through
competition.
Second, Government still provides large subsidies to the rail industry,
with some of this money being paid to shareholders in dividends, which
is therefore lost to the industry.
Third, it is argued that renationalisation would create a simpler
structure with a unified, vertically- integrated organisation with
top-down goals and common objectives. This could reduce the duplication
of functions across the industry and allow economies of scale/scope to
be maximised. There could also be a reduction in transaction, legal and
consultancy costs, as there would not be the same level of external
procurement and matters such as discussions with the trade unions could
be dealt with nationally rather than by many separate companies.
Finally, owing to the nature of the rail industry, ongoing Government
involvement is needed to regulate the private monopolies within the
industry. This means it is unlikely that the industry will ever run as
an effective privatised industry.
The Study has considered these arguments and the key issues below.

21.4.1 Cost Efficiency
One of the primary advantages of the privatisation of nationalised
industries has normally been the increase in efficiency as companies
compete for contracts and then aim to make profits for shareholders.
However, in the rail sector, privatisation does not appear to have led
to the cost reductions seen in other privatised industries, many of
which have seen an initial average reduction of 4^6% per year in
operating costs.105 The Study^s analysis of the barriers to efficiency
improvement in GB (Great Britain) rail are set out in this report.

Some stakeholders have argued that cost efficiencies have been
difficult to achieve as British Rail was efficient. Smith, Nash and
Wheat compared the efficiency of British Rail with other international
railways. They find results to be inconclusive, with studies ranking
British Rail as the most efficient, others as the least efficient, and
some about average. However, they conclude that there is no strong
evidence that British Rail was any more efficient than its
international peers.

The efficiency performance since privatisation has been mixed. The
Office of Rail Regulation^s (ORR» (Office of Rail and Road formerly Office of Rail Regulation - about)) international benchmarking has shown
that Railtrack^s/NR» (Network Rail - home page)^s efficiency declined initially between 2000 and
2006 compared with European benchmarks, but has since improved and
efficiency is targeted to match those of the top-performing European
operators at the end of Control Period 5 (CP5 (Control Period 5 - the five year period between 2014 and 2019)) albeit this has yet to
be achieved. The Study^s own international benchmarking of TOC (Train Operating Company) costs
shows that GB rail costs are comparable to, if not below, those of
state-run operators in Europe.

Given the cost reductions seen in other sectors from privatisation, it
seems unlikely that renationalisation would lead to a reduction in
costs. As argued elsewhere in this report, it is the extensive
involvement of Government that has, to some extent, prevented the cost
reductions seen elsewhere.

Furthermore, where Government has taken control of aspects of the rail
system, costs have tended to increase rather than decline. For example:
^ Smith and Wheat (2009) show that where Government has been directly
involved in TOC contracts, for example where TOCs were put on
management contracts or had their contracts re-negotiated, there was
deterioration in efficiency. They found that, on average, the
efficiency of TOCs on management contracts was 1.8% per year worse than
other TOCs. By the end of the period that TOCs were on alternative
arrangements, their costs had risen by 16% relative to those that had
remained on standard franchise agreements.
^ The Office of the PPP Arbiter report assessed the relative
performance of the PPP Infracos, Bakerloo/Central/Victoria and
subsurface lines (BCV/SSL (Short Swing Link bogies (125))), which had been in public control since
2008, and Tubelines, which transferred to public control in 2010. This
found that since BCV/SSL had been brought into public ownership, cost
performance had got worse, and was moving away from the benchmark range
(although the opportunity for reduced costs was significantly greater).
Tubelines^ costs were examined before public ownership and showed a
significantly improving cost trend in 2008 and 2009, with costs
approaching benchmark levels.

Evidence from other sectors also suggests that private ownership is
more efficient than public:
^ equity-owned water and sewerage companies are, in general, more
efficient than their state- owned counterparts; and
^ between 1995 and 2007 private-sector services^ productivity improved
by 4.7%, whereas Government services declined by 12.6%.

21.4.2 Payments to shareholders
As private firms aim to increase profits, it is argued by some
stakeholders that this drains the rail industry of investment as
dividends are paid to shareholders rather than being reinvested into
the industry. Therefore, this argument suggests that the subsidies paid
for the service are higher than necessary to cover its costs to allow
companies to make a profit.

However, this argument assumes that the cost of services would be the
same if they were provided by a public- or private-sector company.
Private companies should be incentivised to reduce costs to create a
profit and it seems likely that the Government would need to pay the
same, if not more, for these services due to inefficiency in a
nationalised industry. This appears to be supported by the Study^s
international benchmarking of TOC costs and evidence from other sectors.

Furthermore, the scale of TOC and Rolling Stock Company (ROSCO» (Rolling Stock Owning Company - about)) profits
is relatively small in relation to the overall costs of the industry.
In 2009/10 combined profits of TOCs and ROSCOs were around ^400m, which
was around 3% of total industry expenditure. This is a significant
reduction compared with 2007/08, when profits peaked at around ^900m,
reflecting the impact of the economic downturn. TOC profitability is
relatively low, with a typical operating margin of 3^5%. NR also makes
profits, although these tend to be reinvested in the network. In
general, rail contributes a small proportion to the overall profits of
transport groups and, consequently, the payment of dividends. The
efficiency improvements from private-sector involvement are therefore
likely to significantly outweigh the costs of paying dividends to
shareholders.
END QUOTE

There is more in this vein. One important factor to
note is that the profits made by the TOCs and the ROSCOs together
amount to no more than 3 per cent of the total industry expenditure.

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