Stock cascade of class 150s

[whole diary]

[Chris from Nailsea]

Some subsequent posts on this topic started to discuss the wider implications of the possibility that FGW^▸ (First Great Western) may choose not take up the option to renew their franchise - so I've merged them with another topic on that wider debate, at http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=8577.0

Chris. 

[Rhydgaled]

If the wag can come up with the money for this  then maybe they could look to see if they can at least raise part of the ^100 million need to extend the wires to swansea, i know the WAG^» (Welsh Assembly Government - about) is looking at using some of the money they receive from the EU^» (European Union - about) to help pay for it.

if they can get enough to do this then if the wire's do run to cheltenham  ATW^▸ (Arriva Trains Wales (former TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company))) could free up at least 6 DMU^▸ (Diesel Multiple Unit)'s which could be replaced by new EMU^▸ (Electric Multiple Unit)'s on a Swansea - Cardiff Central - Cheltenham spa service.

 

Or the WAG could cancel the ^600 million widening of the heads of the valley road

Seems you have the same ideas as me, I want to see WAG cancel the heads of the valleys road dualing to pay for:

• Electrification of Maesteg branch
• Electrification of Ebbw Vale branch
• Electrification of Severn Tunnel Junction - Gloucester/Cheltenham Spa
• Purchase of a fleet of 3-car class 377 units for the following all-stations ValleyLines services:

• Hourly Maesteg - Ebbw Vale
• Hourly Ebbw Vale - Newport
• Hourly Swansea - Cheltenham Spa (Swanline)

[/list]
The purchase of the units for the Swanline service will hopefully pursuade DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) to cough up for wiring Swansea - Cardiff, if not there'll be enough of the Heads Of The Valleys Road money left to wire it anyway. The cost of all this? ^526,690,000, including the cost of Severn Tunnel Junction to Cardiff which London have said they'll fund anyway. Yes, you can have all this instead of the Heads Of The Valleys Road dualing and still make ^73,310,000 of spending cuts!

Hopefully the WAG funding to Gloucester will also get DfT to wire Swindon - Cheltenham, completing the Severn Tunnel diversionary route and meaning you only need bi-mode IEP^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project.) for Worcester/Hereford/Great Malvern services. IEP, with 26m coaches, might be out-of-gauge for Pembroke and Carmarthen so my solution is to cascade the IC225s from the East Coast by introducing more IEPs there and swap the 91 for a TDM fitted 57 at Swansea.

Since you seem to have the same idea as me, any chance you could suggest how to get a campaign started to make this happen?

If they can get EU funding, great, they can use it to wire the other ValleyLines, starting with the Vale Of Glamorgan for it's use as a GWML^▸ (Great Western Main Line) diversionary route and either Aberdare or Merthyr (because VOG services run through to those places). Either way, they should still cancel Heads Of The Valleys dualing.

[ChrisB]

• Electrification of Severn Tunnel Junction - Gloucester/Cheltenham Spa

Hopefully the WAG^» (Welsh Assembly Government - about) funding to Gloucester

WAG will never pay for that....Most of it is in England.

[northwesterntrains]

First, the 150s from LM^▸ (London Midland - recent franchise) won't be arriving in May. Late summer is the current estimate.

I don't know if it will affect the order of the cascade but the EMT^» (East Midlands Trains - about) have based their May 2011 timetable on them gaining the 4x156s from Northern which includes the 16:52 Liverpool to Nottingham service being extended to Norwich.  Northern won't be able to release those 156s unless extra stock arrives (they've had to loan a 150 from ATW^▸ (Arriva Trains Wales (former TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company))) to have enough units at present.)  The only alternative I can think of will be EMT subleasing 153s off London Midland until the 156s can be released.

[willc]

• Electrification of Severn Tunnel Junction - Gloucester/Cheltenham Spa

Hopefully the WAG^» (Welsh Assembly Government - about) funding to Gloucester

WAG will never pay for that....Most of it is in England.

It's not even a case of won't. They can't. They have no writ across the border.

Rhygaled, have you actually asked the people who rely on the Heads of the Valleys road to get about - no rail lines remain to allow such journeys - what they think of your ideas? No, thought not. Just like you were so keen to volunteer Cotswold Line passengers to lose their through trains to and from London.

[6 OF 2 redundant adjunct of unimatrix 01]

if emt needs 156's and has 153's to spare then why not just double up the 153's then you get a 155 (more or less)

[grahame]

if emt needs 156's and has 153's to spare then why not just double up the 153's then you get a 155 (more or less)

Route restrictions?   I don't know about the East Midlands ... but in our own area if you run a service from Temple Meads towards Portsmouth, you can get to Bath if it's a 165 or 166, to Warminster if it's a 142 or 143, to Southampton Central if it's a 153, and you can only go all the way on a 150 or 158.  And I seem to recall that the issue with 153s is the extra driver's steps added when they were converted into single carriage multiple units.

Managing flexibility?   In the grand scheme of things, it doesn't seem the brightest of solutions to pair up two trains more or less permanently when I could name you a line that is crying out for an intermediate service between its first and last trains and 153s would be a good start. I can also name services run from the same depot which really need some reduction in overcrowding, be that achieved by running them with an extra carriage or by running another service on a different route which abstracts some of the traffic.

[northwesterntrains]

if emt needs 156's and has 153's to spare then why not just double up the 153's then you get a 155 (more or less)

EMT^» (East Midlands Trains - about) don't have 153s or any other Sprinter stock to spare.  It's London Midland who have spare 153s sitting around doing nothing but apparently FGW^▸ (First Great Western) are getting some of LM^▸ (London Midland - recent franchise)'s 153s as well as Northern getting one on loan to help cover for 4 DMUs^▸ (Diesel Multiple Unit) being out-of-service long term.

The EMT franchise got a very poor deal in terms of stock, while London Midland and CrossCountry's former Central Trains routes got generous deals.  Central Trains used 150s on Crewe-Derby, EMT have to use single 153s on this service.  Central Trains used 3-5 car 158s and 170s on Liverpool-Norwich, EMT have to use a mix of 2 and 4 car 158s, with 2 car being insufficient for most services on that route.

The intention is for all of EMT's 158s to be used on Liverpool-Norwich with the 158s being used on Skegness services being replaced by 156s cascaded from Northern.

The Liverpool-Norwich route is EMT's less punctual and services can't be retimed to take longer due to pathing problems so it's pretty important that stock running this service is at least 90mph capable.  On the Norfolk section there's a substantial section where heavier stock (185s, 22xs) would have to run to lower speed limits than lighter stock (158s, 170s.)

[northwesterntrains]

And I seem to recall that the issue with 153s is the extra driver's steps added when they were converted into single carriage multiple units.

Yes I seem to recall platform clearance issues with 153s being stated as a clearance problem previously.

153s also have less power than 150s, 155s, 156s and 158s so for that reason that can't run routes that have steep gradients such as Buxton-Manchester, which is also a route that 14xs aren't permitted to run. 

[6 OF 2 redundant adjunct of unimatrix 01]

Sorry northern I misread one of your previous posts I thought you said emt had the 153,s not lm, just out of interest tho as far as power goes would doubling up 153's not increase the power

[anthony215]

And I seem to recall that the issue with 153s is the extra driver's steps added when they were converted into single carriage multiple units.

Yes I seem to recall platform clearance issues with 153s being stated as a clearance problem previously.

153s also have less power than 150s, 155s, 156s and 158s so for that reason that can't run routes that have steep gradients such as Buxton-Manchester, which is also a route that 14xs aren't permitted to run. 

Your certainly right about the class 153's struggling with power when pulling off.  a class 153 certainly struggles to pull away from skewen station when working on swanline service yet a class 150 can manage ok. Mind you i have been on a class 175 which has struglled to pull away from skwen

[northwesterntrains]

just out of interest tho as far as power goes would doubling up 153's not increase the power

Doubling up would increase the power but would also increase the amount of weight to be moved.  I'm not an expert on how the 153s were engineered so don't know if 2x153s would be as powerful as a 155.

[northwesterntrains]

Your certainly right about the class 153's struggling with power when pulling off.  a class 153 certainly struggles to pull away from skewen station when working on swanline service yet a class 150 can manage ok. Mind you i have been on a class 175 which has struglled to pull away from skwen

How easily units can move away also partly depends on how many people are crammed on.  A 2 car 142 with 200 people on board seems to take a couple of minutes to reach 15mph.

The 175 issue is possibly that they were specifically designed for North West and North Wales routes and the Marshes and South Wales is a different ball game.  On the other hand the 185s were designed for operating on steep cross mountain track.  Maybe with less interference from the Welsh Assembly 175s would have stayed on North West routes and new 185s would have gone on the Manchester to Carmarthen/Milford Haven route - not that the Desiro seating would have been popular!

[inspector_blakey]

Maybe with less interference from the Welsh Assembly 175s would have stayed on North West routes and new 185s would have gone on the Manchester to Carmarthen/Milford Haven route - not that the Desiro seating would have been popular!

What's wrong with it? I've found all the Desiro family trains I've travelled on (esp the 185 and 444) to be perfectly comfortable.

[northwesterntrains]

What's wrong with it? I've found all the Desiro family trains I've travelled on (esp the 185 and 444) to be perfectly comfortable.

Do you really think the 185 seating in standard class is suitable for 4 hour journeys?  Most people have had enough of it after 2 hours.