Stock cascade of class 150s

[whole diary]

[grahame]

From a 'tail end' discussion on the end of Matthew Golton's electrification and IEP^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project.) presentation on Saturday.

Currently 30 vehicles on their way in - 12 have arrived and another 18 late summer - to replace other units which are being returned whence they came.  This provided a small increase in seating as they as the per-vehicle seats are more on the incoming that the outgoing.

"The DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) recognises the need for more"

26 vehicles not yet allocated, and 3 TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) are bidding for (some?) of them.   They will primarily be deployed to meet the DfT's overcrowding constraints, some of which are in the wider Bristol area.  To "best cases" yet to be determined. 

FGW^▸ (First Great Western) are one of the three bidders - looking at flows into Bristol from Weston, from the North and also some relief from Westbury / Trowbridge into Bath and Bristol.  Question was asked concerning Freshford; answered as a single station question the answer was not encouraging, but looking at the wider picture (and going beyond what Matthew said), switching the Westbury / Trowbridge to Chippenham / Swindon flow onto a direct service would provide significant relief to the Westbury to Bath section.

[ChrisB]

I'm seeing Matthew again tomorrow afternoon - is there anything we want clarified?

[northwesterntrains]

The unallocated ones include the 2 original 150/0s and the 2x3 car sets which have been formed in to three car sets after vehicle write-offs.  If the latter 2 are reformed in to 2 car sets then one won't have a toilet vehicle.

It's FGW^▸ (First Great Western), London Midland and Northern who are the companies bidding for the 150s.

The latest DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) decision involves Northern getting 24x150 vehicles to replace the 180s and 16x150 vehicles to replace 8x156 EMT^» (East Midlands Trains - about) bound vehicles and a few extra for growth.

Northern now also have to submit proposals to DfT for where they would utilise the 142s with FGW, after the 150 cascade and if DfT aren't happy with those proposals they could in theory stay with FGW, go to another operator or be put in to storage, despite the recent repaints which apparently are in preparation for them returning to Northern.

[The SprinterMeister]

From memory 57209 & 57212 are the orphaned 150/2 vehicles following the scrapping of the respective 52xxx vehicles. In theory one of them could have a toilet installed and renumbered to a 52xxx although this means cutting into the roof sheet (which is structural) to create the access for the roof mounted tank.

The two 150/0's while mechanically simalar to 150/1 differ in a number of respects as regards spare parts provision, driver knowledge and inter-vehicle coupling arrangements and could cause a few issues unless operated out of a single depot in the way the 142's always operate out of Exeter.

[vacman]

talking to  manager the other day I was told that the majority of the 150/1's will be based at Exeter, if correct then they will be in good hands! Also confirmed that 3x153's may be on their way from LM^▸ (London Midland - recent franchise) possibly on sub lease but eventually permanent.

[Steve44]

The unallocated ones include the 2 original 150/0s and the 2x3 car sets which have been formed in to three car sets after vehicle write-offs.  If the latter 2 are reformed in to 2 car sets then one won't have a toilet vehicle.

It's FGW^▸ (First Great Western), London Midland and Northern who are the companies bidding for the 150s.

The latest DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) decision involves Northern getting 24x150 vehicles to replace the 180s and 16x150 vehicles to replace 8x156 EMT^» (East Midlands Trains - about) bound vehicles and a few extra for growth.

Northern now also have to submit proposals to DfT for where they would utilise the 142s with FGW, after the 150 cascade and if DfT aren't happy with those proposals they could in theory stay with FGW, go to another operator or be put in to storage, despite the recent repaints which apparently are in preparation for them returning to Northern.

Am i confusing myself here... why would London Midland be bidding for 150s when they're getting rid of theirs when the 172s are complete? sorry if that's a silly question...

[The SprinterMeister]

talking to  manager the other day I was told that the majority of the 150/1's will be based at Exeter, if correct then they will be in good hands! Also confirmed that 3x153's may be on their way from LM^▸ (London Midland - recent franchise) possibly on sub lease but eventually permanent.

I believe the plan to allocate the 15 x 150/1 to 83C has been shelved unfortunately.

[paul7575]

Am i confusing myself here... why would London Midland be bidding for 150s when they're getting rid of theirs when the 172s are complete? sorry if that's a silly question...

It isn't a silly question at all, because the new fleets for LM^▸ (London Midland - recent franchise) were only ever intended to be like for like replacements - there are economies of scale in allocating all of a new fleet to one operator, and splitting the cascade of older ex BR^▸ (British Rail(ways)) stock around the country, hopefully to operators who are already familiar with the unit type in their incoming share of the cascade.

As the Dft rolling stock plan read, LM's 172s basically replaced a very similar number of 150s, (on a near one for one basis) and all the released 150s would go to other TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) (always understoood to be FGW^▸ (First Great Western) and Northern).  If nothing changed in the meantime, there'd be no 150s 'spare' for LM to be considering.  AIUI^▸ (as I understand it) the catch in the plan was that although Northern were initially allocated a large proportion of the 150s, this remained subject to the DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) agreeing business case - in hindsight the DfT plan had a get out. So now there are a number of unallocated units - and they could go anywhere - even though they are currently in LM's hands.

Likewise, the small print of the recent announcement mentions that the 7 142s that FGW have 'on loan' from Northern won't necessarily go back into service - as DfT need to see yet another business case to supoport their reintroduction.

There is an EMU^▸ (Electric Multiple Unit) analogy on LM as well. The DfT rolling stock plan had them getting 37 Desiro 350/2s to replace their 37 older 321s on a one for one basis.  The theory was that the older fleet would be split 3 ways between FCC^▸ (First Capital Connect) (10), NXEA^▸ (National Express East Anglia) (17), and c2c (10).  As things turned out the 10 for c2c didn't happen, and eventually 7 units were retained by LM.  In a recent DfT announcement these were considered 'additional stock' for LM - even though they had never physically left...  

Paul  

[northwesterntrains]

As the Dft rolling stock plan read, LM^▸ (London Midland - recent franchise)'s 172s basically replaced a very similar number of 150s, (on a near one for one basis) and all the released 150s would go to other TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) (always understoood to be FGW^▸ (First Great Western) and Northern).  

Don't forget a couple of years back there was also supposed to be a new DMU^▸ (Diesel Multiple Unit) order (likely 172s) which would have been split between Northern, FGW and TPE^▸ (Trans Pennine Express)*, which was supposed to supply the extra stock.  While cascaded Sprinters were supposed to replace the smaller and less versatile Pacers.

The 12x142s that went down to FGW were supposed to have been withdrawn when FGW no longer required them.  However, DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) deciding to make TPE run Manchester to Scotland without extra stock to allow Virgin to increase frequencies in addition to increased passenger numbers meant Northern had to run extra services and that meant they had to take 5x142s back and sublease 3x180s.

* = Although I imagine if they were 172s some of them would have gone to LM instead of TPE and LM's 170s would have gone to TPE.

[anthony215]

 Northern now have a arriva trains wales class 150,  150285 on loan.

Also ATW^▸ (Arriva Trains Wales (former TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company))) seem to have managed to find a class 175 unit to work the 2nd WAG^» (Welsh Assembly Government - about) express service rom may til december when it will then go over to class 67, mk3 & dvt operation.  not sure what the fture holds for the 1st wag express though as funding is only til december 2011

[vacman]

Northern now have a arriva trains wales class 150,  150285 on loan.

wont be long before Northern knacker that unit like everything else they touch!

[willc]

Also ATW^▸ (Arriva Trains Wales (former TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company))) seem to have managed to find a class 175 unit to work the 2nd WAG^» (Welsh Assembly Government - about) express service rom may til december when it will then go over to class 67, mk3 & dvt operation.  not sure what the fture holds for the 1st wag express though as funding is only til december 2011

Funding is now in place until the end of the current Wales franchise in 2018. WAG has paid ^3.5m up front and up to 10 Mk3s, DTs and Class 67s are being leased as a result to work the two express services. There will be additional money each year as an operating subsidy.

[tramway]

Also ATW^▸ (Arriva Trains Wales (former TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company))) seem to have managed to find a class 175 unit to work the 2nd WAG^» (Welsh Assembly Government - about) express service rom may til december when it will then go over to class 67, mk3 & dvt operation.  not sure what the fture holds for the 1st wag express though as funding is only til december 2011

Funding is now in place until the end of the current Wales franchise in 2018. WAG has paid ^3.5m up front and up to 10 Mk3s, DTs and Class 67s are being leased as a result to work the two express services. There will be additional money each year as an operating subsidy.

Is this cover for lack of 158 stock? (or even 175)

Reason for the question will the decision to cancel the 172/4 order for Pompey/Cardiff being the need to shuffle everything else.?

[anthony215]

If the wag can come up with the money for this  then maybe they could look to see if they can at least raise part of the ^100 million need to extend the wires to swansea, i know the WAG^» (Welsh Assembly Government - about) is looking at using some of the money they receive from the EU^» (European Union - about) to help pay for it.

if they can get enough to do this then if the wire's do run to cheltenham  ATW^▸ (Arriva Trains Wales (former TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company))) could free up at least 6 DMU^▸ (Diesel Multiple Unit)'s which could be replaced by new EMU^▸ (Electric Multiple Unit)'s on a Swansea - Cardiff Central - Cheltenham spa service.

 

Or the WAG could cancel the ^600 million widening of the heads of the valley road

[anthony215]

Also ATW^▸ (Arriva Trains Wales (former TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company))) seem to have managed to find a class 175 unit to work the 2nd WAG^» (Welsh Assembly Government - about) express service rom may til december when it will then go over to class 67, mk3 & dvt operation.  not sure what the fture holds for the 1st wag express though as funding is only til december 2011

Funding is now in place until the end of the current Wales franchise in 2018. WAG has paid ^3.5m up front and up to 10 Mk3s, DTs and Class 67s are being leased as a result to work the two express services. There will be additional money each year as an operating subsidy.

Is this cover for lack of 158 stock? (or even 175)

Reason for the question will the decision to cancel the 172/4 order for Pompey/Cardiff being the need to shuffle everything else.?

FGW^▸ (First Great Western)  operate the Cardiff - Portsmouth Hbr service, but from may when FGW receive the class 150's from london midland then the 2 class 150's which are hired from ATW will be returned.

 This will  allow ATW to displace the 2 class 158's which are currently used on the Maesteg - Cheltenham service to allow a hourly Aberystwyth - Shrewsbury peak hour service.

however a few people including myself have been wondering where ATW have managed to find this class spare class 175 to work the 2nd WAG service which starts from Swansea at 17:10 (I believe when the service does go over to loco haulage that it would be the 1st regular loco hauled service out of swansea for a good number of years.)

I know FGW are  at sorting out the clearance iussue at trowbridge which if sorted , the plan was to use a number of the 3 carriage class 165/166 units on the cardiff - portsmouth Hbr service to allow some of the class 158's to be sent to work the Exeter - Penzance service's