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Author Topic: GWML Electrification - Campaign against bi-mode  (Read 53840 times)
Tim
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« Reply #60 on: March 08, 2011, 10:52:58 »

on this route?
The main problem I foresee is that patronage of the railways is on the up, not static, and it seems that HMG aren't ordering sufficient number of coaches / trains. I foresee very rapid overcrowding....

I agree, a much more important issue is that the new trains will be too short and too cramped. 
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JayMac
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« Reply #61 on: March 08, 2011, 13:25:22 »

Why would they be cramped?

We don't yet know the service pattern and how the Super Expresses will be diagrammed so it's a bit early to be complaining that they are too short.
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« Reply #62 on: March 08, 2011, 14:07:44 »

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Ok, I'll hold my hands up and admit that I don't have the local knowlage etc. to know for sure where you can get away with reducing the number of through services (NOTE: I mean reduce, not remove) or where you can swap locos easily. Since swapping one loco for another wouldn't work, would Oxford's station layout allow for an EMU (Electric Multiple Unit) drag means of operation instead, perhaps with the wires extending a short distance beyond the station and slipping the diesel off in-motion on approach to the station?

You admit you don't have local knowledge, yet plough on regardless. We used to have far fewer through trains. That ended in the early 1990s, since when, on the back of almost everything running to and from London (FGW (First Great Western) timetable 19 if you care to check), passenger numbers on the Cotswold Line have soared. Start messing around with that provision and you will achieve the reverse effect - very quickly. The Chiltern line is a short drive for many people hereabouts. As for uncoupling locos on the move, don't make me laugh. Sometimes it's hard enough to get Turbos to unstick standing in a station.

Has it ever occurred to you that if the trains to West Wales are that important then someone might be looking at sorting out the clearance issues, if they do exist? Which would probably be rather cheaper than going back to the drawing board for the IEP (Intercity Express Program / Project.) for the umpteenth time for the sake of a few summer Saturday trains to Tenby and Pembroke.

Quote
Perhaps if bi-mode really is the only option for Worcester (and beyond) trains, gearing the units to run on diesel at 100mph and electric at 140mph, if it's possible, might fix some of the enviromental concerns. Building on this, and going from a suggestion elsewhere that 1/3 and 2/3 doors might be better on this route, a bi-mode version of the Javelins (designed so all the diesel equipment can be removed to cut the weight down to that of an equivelent EMU) could be ordered just for this route, with true INTERCITY (end vestible door) EMU stock ordered for the PAD» (Paddington (London) - next trains) - Bristol Temple Meads/Cheltenham

Given that the maximum line speed west of Oxford is 100mph, that is quite enough speed for diesel power. As for those suggestions elsewhere, end doors will do fine thanks - just so long as they have power doors to avoid all the time lost checking  HST (High Speed Train) doors at present - this is rural England, not inner-suburban London. It gets a bit tedious in the depths of winter having all the heat sucked out of a Turbo every five minutes when the doors are opened at the next stop.

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Tim
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« Reply #63 on: March 08, 2011, 15:48:23 »

Why would they be cramped?

We don't yet know the service pattern and how the Super Expresses will be diagrammed so it's a bit early to be complaining that they are too short.

IIUIC, we know that the bi-modes will be 5 cars and the electrics will be 8 cars.  They will be 26m long not 23m as at present although the space available for passengers will be less in the two vehicles with driving cabs.  So we might get 100 or so extra seats from bristol to London via Bath.  This is a kind of capacity level that will be eaten up by growth between 2016/2017 when the new trains are in service.  Shorter journey times will also add to growth.

It might be premature to start moaning, but do you fancy betting that there will be overcrowding by 2020?  Fiver says that there will be.     
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Tim
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« Reply #64 on: March 08, 2011, 15:53:41 »

We used to have far fewer through trains. That ended in the early 1990s, since when, on the back of almost everything running to and from London (FGW (First Great Western) timetable 19 if you care to check), passenger numbers on the Cotswold Line have soared.?

Whilst some adjustments might be sensible, cutting back the number of through trains wouldn't make sense.  The trains are often busiest in the didcot-London leg.  If you cut the trains going to London it would not just be the cotswolds that would suffer.  You would also get problems at Reading and Didcot.  Traffic from those points has also soared.
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JayMac
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« Reply #65 on: March 08, 2011, 17:27:18 »

Why would they be cramped?

We don't yet know the service pattern and how the Super Expresses will be diagrammed so it's a bit early to be complaining that they are too short.

IIUIC, we know that the bi-modes will be 5 cars and the electrics will be 8 cars.  They will be 26m long not 23m as at present although the space available for passengers will be less in the two vehicles with driving cabs.  So we might get 100 or so extra seats from bristol to London via Bath.  This is a kind of capacity level that will be eaten up by growth between 2016/2017 when the new trains are in service.  Shorter journey times will also add to growth.

It might be premature to start moaning, but do you fancy betting that there will be overcrowding by 2020?  Fiver says that there will be.     

11000 extra seats per day out of Paddington from the get go. With a modular fleet of trains that will allow extra coaches to be built should demand so require.

If Bristol to London via Bath is to stay at 2tph with 8 car Super Expresses then, taking the figure for a 10 car electric (649 seats) and  removing two carriages worth of seating (a conservative estimate of 150 - probably near 130) leaves us with a seating capacity of around 500 per train. Compared with the current 2+8 HST (High Speed Train) figure of 469.

So thats an extra 30 seats per train on 35 services a day (one way - based on current M-F timetable). 1050 extra seats per day on Bristol - Paddington via Bath alone.

I suspect the seating capacity of an 8 car electric Super Express will actually be nearer 520. So, possibly nearer an extra 1500 seats per day from Bristol/Bath to Paddington.

I'll take the bet that there won't be overcrowding on this route by 2020. Even between Reading and Paddington!
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John R
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« Reply #66 on: March 08, 2011, 19:05:29 »

Don't forget the proposal is for 5 tph between Bristol and London compared with the current 4, so even if the capacity of each train is the same that is a 25% uplift.
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ChrisB
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« Reply #67 on: March 08, 2011, 19:23:59 »

Thats just bristol. Cardiff seems to get one 8car electric terminator plus one 10 car (5 to Swansea) bi-mode. Will 5car Swanseas be enough?
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anthony215
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« Reply #68 on: March 08, 2011, 19:30:31 »

Thats just bristol. Cardiff seems to get one 8car electric terminator plus one 10 car (5 to Swansea) bi-mode. Will 5car Swanseas be enough?

5 carriages between Swansea & Cardiff should be enough apart from when there are major events on in cardiff or swansea.
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Tim
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« Reply #69 on: March 09, 2011, 10:23:57 »

I'll take the bet that there won't be overcrowding on this route by 2020. Even between Reading and Paddington!

You're on.  [handshake]


Edited to fix quote. bignosemac
« Last Edit: March 10, 2011, 02:28:30 by bignosemac » Logged
JayMac
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« Reply #70 on: March 10, 2011, 02:27:16 »

I'll take the bet that there won't be overcrowding on this route by 2020. Even between Reading and Paddington!

You're on.  [handshake]

[handshake returned]

Now we just need an independent arbiter to decide what constitutes overcrowding 9 years hence.  Wink Cheesy Grin
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inspector_blakey
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« Reply #71 on: March 10, 2011, 04:16:06 »

Served and witnessed. I'll PM you with my address and will guarantee that whoever sends the biggest bribe will win the bet Wink
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JayMac
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« Reply #72 on: March 10, 2011, 04:52:11 »

Dollars or Sterling, blakey?  Tongue Wink Grin
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« Reply #73 on: March 12, 2011, 15:48:00 »

I have yet to see anyone agree with you here, nor you post in more influential fora or magazines, nor anyone else post / write elsewhere with your wishes as a subject.
So, magazines would be a good avenue to contact, thanks for the advice. Have you (or anyone reading this) any more useful suggestions? Also, some do agree with me. There are some users on RailUK Fourms who support my views, and, admittedly, others who support the bi-mode Multiple Unit side of the argument. Here is a topic discussing the issue over there, and another. There's even a supporter of my views here in this thread:
I'm 100% for a loco and coaches train against multiple unit operation any day.

Be it like HST (High Speed Train)'s with Loco at both ends, maybe a loco could be Diesel & Electric powered, but for ride comfort who want's engines hammering away under your feet!

Something that seem's to be totally overlooked with Diesel units is this.

Say a timetable calls for 12 train units in service then a fleet of
16 Multiple units is required to cover Breakdowns and Planed Maintenance.

However have Loco & Coaches you still need 16 loco's but only 14 coaching sets, as coaches require FAR LESS maintenance than Locos or Multiple Units.
I would of course object to having diesel and electric in the same loco in most cases, but again it might just be acceptable for the Hereford/Worcester route if you can't attach a loco for an EMU (Electric Multiple Unit) drag.

You've left this far too late - why on earth weren't you campaigning when the last Government initially suggested electrification on this route?
The last government's proposals were more sencible in most respects, they were to electrify to Swansea which would have reduced numbers of bi-modes. They did have flaws in their plans, like wanting to replace IC225s (which I did write a complaint about) and ordering new diesels/bi-mode for the Taunton (and beyond) trains rather than sticking with IC125s. Also I've only recently, since the WAG» (Welsh Assembly Government - about)'s TrawsCambria consultation, really decided to try and make my voice heard. Anyway, until I knew what the new government were planning to do I couldn't really comment.

Where's the pinch-point beyond Swansea that you think would prevent a 26m vehicle working to west Wales, and if you don't mind me asking what's your source for that?
I don't know exactly, but on a fourm (I think it wasn't this one) I heard Narberth mentioned. Also, there seems to be quite a few posts about expendature that will be needed to adapt stations on the main routes for the 26m coaches, and I doubt such works would be considered justified by the cash-stripped DfT» (Department for Transport - about) if there are any clearence issues at all anywhere west of Swansea.

My honest opinion (and this is from someone who travels to and from west Wales regularly, since my parents' nearest station is Whitland) is that the loss of the summer Saturday HSTs to Pembroke Dock wouldn't be a huge issue - the times I've used them they are pretty lightly loaded beyond Swansea, and particularly so beyond Carmarthen, and frankly an HST is extremely ill-suited to that sort of rural branch line with frequent stops and short platforms. It really doesn't make sense in my view to design the entire IEP (Intercity Express Program / Project.) around maintaining that sort of vestigial service that must only run about 30 times a year, and to which there must be an alternative solution.

If a 26m car length would also prevent the daily HSTs to Carmarthen then that could be a bigger issue, especially since the weekday 0730 CMN-PAD» (Paddington (London) - next trains) service gets pretty busy with people travelling to work in Swansea. Having said that, the 1745 PAD-CMN is carrying plenty of fresh air after Cardiff and all but deserted once it's left Swansea.
I've seen a Pembroke bound INTERCITY at Whitland once, and the platform was rather busy with passengers waiting to board. I've also seen a video taken from the service, which shows a substantial number of passengers dissenbarking at Tenby. If this is the norm, there's no way the normal class 150, Pacer or 153 would have sufficent capacity. That said, I doubt you need all 8-cars of the IC125, somewhere between 5 and 7 would probablly be enough. Remove the service altogether and I would imagine the 150s would cope, because Pembrokeshire might either loose the tourisim or see an increase in overflowing car parks. Again it is the enviromental point that matters to me.

As for uncoupling locos on the move, don't make me laugh. Sometimes it's hard enough to get Turbos to unstick standing in a station.
Daft though it sounds, the GWR (Great Western Railway) did have slip coaches which they uncoupled on the move, and these didn't have power to get themselves out of the way. I therefore thought it might be worth suggesting doing the same to try and make EMU drags possible without extending journey times much (although you could probablly do the job in a 5 miniute station dwell time anyway).

Quote
Perhaps if bi-mode really is the only option for Worcester (and beyond) trains, gearing the units to run on diesel at 100mph and electric at 140mph, if it's possible, might fix some of the enviromental concerns. Building on this, and going from a suggestion elsewhere that 1/3 and 2/3 doors might be better on this route, a bi-mode version of the Javelins (designed so all the diesel equipment can be removed to cut the weight down to that of an equivelent EMU) could be ordered just for this route, with true INTERCITY (end vestible door) EMU stock ordered for the PAD - Bristol Temple Meads/Cheltenham

Given that the maximum line speed west of Oxford is 100mph, that is quite enough speed for diesel power. As for those suggestions elsewhere, end doors will do fine thanks - just so long as they have power doors to avoid all the time lost checking  HST doors at present - this is rural England, not inner-suburban London. It gets a bit tedious in the depths of winter having all the heat sucked out of a Turbo every five minutes when the doors are opened at the next stop.
If end doors will do, that's good, it means the whole fleet can be built with them. However the question remains, could the bi-modes have different gearing while on diesel power, to allow the diesel engines to be less thirsty and still accelerate to 100mph quickly (at the cost of not being able to go faster on diesel)?
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----------------------------
Don't DOO (Driver-Only Operation (that is, trains which operate without carrying a guard)) it, keep the guard (but it probably wouldn't be a bad idea if the driver unlocked the doors on arrival at calling points).
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« Reply #74 on: March 12, 2011, 15:57:43 »

There are still too many 'don't knows' for you to form a distinct campaign. You'd better learn fast about what you wish to campaign for!

Oh, and 4 others agree with you. Looking forward to reading your letters in the natinal press then.
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