Anger at 80ft Network Rail mast in Cornwall

[whole diary]

[smokey]

Network Rail do not need planning permission for Items associated with the running of the Railway,
So Signals, Retaining walls, Relay rooms, Signal boxes, etc, do not need planning permission, but buildings not associated with direct running operation do need planning permission.

It's not always the case that NR^» (Network Rail - home page) don't need planning permission.

[RailCornwall]

I'll add that a Satellite solution is already implemented for similar needs in Canada, Australia, the US, Japan and China. Indeed a test was done in the late 1990's in the UK^▸ (United Kingdom). Satellite availablility in cuttings and tunnels would be on a par with a land based radio solution. NR^» (Network Rail - home page) aren't wiring tunnels are they? Telemetry would fed back on next acquisition.

It wouldn't need dedicated satellites or Ground Facilities, these could be provided on a leased basis and with appropriate diversity of uplinks and backhauls to and from the UK anywhere within the Satellite Footprint. For a fleet of 10-20K vehicles, which I imagine to be all mobile trains in the UK at any one time,  the Access Control System would only be a couple of rack based PCs together with the associated modems. The advantages would be enormous with GPRS^▸ (General Packet Radio Service) feedback instantly to a central resource.

The power requirements onboard the trains would be commensurate with a few mobile phone chargers. Satcom uplinks aren't energy gobblers, as the Iridium hand helds demonstrate. A small dish assembly mounted on the roof of the train would be needed.

Incidentally, I do know what I'm talking about with almost 25 years in Satellite Comms dealing with Maritime, Land based and Aeronautical Mobile Applications at Goonhilly.

[MrC]

I'll add that a Satellite solution is already implemented for similar needs in Canada, Australia, the US, Japan and China.
.....

Interesting - I sit corrected 

However, having had a very quick look around the few satellite based communications and control (as opposed to just positioning) systems there appear to be a number of identified problems (such as reliability in tunnels, cuttings, built-up areas and in high speed/density rail networks) which raise some question marks, whereas GSM-R^▸ (Global System for Mobile communications - Railway.) is more of a known working product and available off the shelf now. The train control systems using satellite based positioning systems still require land based comms of some type, and many seem to be still in the proving or pilot stages.

Oh, and GSM-R (as well as the older CSR^▸ (Cab Secure Radio); not sure about NRN^▸ (National Radio Network)) does cater for tunnels. I suppose being momentarily out of data comms contact in a small tunnel can be allowed for by having balises etc in the relevant places (but you'd still have issues with stop orders), however any large tunnels or a concentration of tunnels could be an issue. You could allow for this by having alternative comms setups around these areas but you're adding development time, complexity and cost while GSM-R still works. There's a separate issue for voice comms where you need guaranteed availability at all times.

So it looks like satellite will be useful in the future, but we aren't there yet so ERTMS^▸ (European Rail Traffic Management System.)/GSM-R is what we get today.

[peterswest]

I think that you will get the " Green" mast option from Network Rail , this seems to happen when a mast is seen to be an "eyesore" to the local area . They could , of course , try the " tree" looking option  , there is one on rattery bank , between Totnes and Marley tunnel ! Next time yr on a train , see if you can pick it out ( easier in the Winter) 
 n.b The tree one was put up by mobile phone companies ,its not for GSMR !

[devon_metro]

I think that you will get the " Green" mast option from Network Rail , this seems to happen when a mast is seen to be an "eyesore" to the local area . They could , of course , try the " tree" looking option  , there is one on rattery bank , between Totnes and Marley tunnel ! Next time yr on a train , see if you can pick it out ( easier in the Winter) 
 n.b The tree one was put up by mobile phone companies ,its not for GSMR !

There is also one on Hill Head in Torbay. Peculiar looking things...

[JayMac]

From the BBC^» (British Broadcasting Corporation - home page):

Protests over railway radio masts in Devon and Cornwall

MPs^▸ (Member of Parliament) and people in Devon and Cornwall living near planned railway radio masts have criticised the structures which do not need planning permission.

The 95ft (29m) tall masts are being put up along main and branch lines for new digital radio communications equipment.

Protesters said there should be more consultation with nearby residents over their installation.

Network Rail said the masts were necessary and erected within the law and it worked to reduce visual impact.

The masts are among 2,200 being built across the country by Network Rail to improve communications between drivers and signallers and reduce the risk of serious accidents.

System recommended

After the Ladbroke Grove railway accident in 1999, where 31 people died and more than 500 were injured, the Cullen Report recommended a new communications system.

The masts do not need planning permission because Network Rail has permitted development rights. But it is obliged to consult councils, MPs and residents who live within 660ft (200m) of any site.

Geoffrey Cox, Conservative MP for Torridge and West Devon, said Network Rail should consult with those affected early on.

"A company [Network Rail] that really wants to endear its support to the public would want to consult people straight away," he said.

Construction work has begun on a mast in Bere Ferrers in the Tamar Valley in Devon.

Critics claim the mast, and others due to be built at nearby Bere Alston and Calstock in Cornwall, will stand out in an area of extreme natural beauty.

Bere Ferris parish councillor Brian Lamb added that critics were not sure if such masts were needed on all branch lines.

"It's a just a single-track line and we cannot see any justification for this," he said.

Network Rail said: "Our aim is to make the railways safer and more reliable for the passengers travelling everyday.

"When selecting a mast site, we take care to minimise any visual impact."

Sheryll Murray, the Conservative MP for South East Cornwall, is planning to meet the transport minister and has said she will be asking questions in the House of Commons about the matter.

The Department for Transport said Network Rail was "best placed to make a decision about the location of a new mast".

[RailCornwall]

There really is no justification for the railway having such planning permission exemption, if Arqiva had to gain planning permission to place new Digital Terrestrial antennae on every transmitter in the Country as part of Digital Switchover there's no reason why ALL railway construction shouldn't have to go through gaining permission.

[inspector_blakey]

Whilst it's certainly an oddity of planning law that railway companies can built more or less whatever they like within the boundaries of their property, I think the comparison between a safety-critical radio system that's needed for the operation of the railway and digital TV masts is a little spurious.

[RailCornwall]

Whether it's safety critical or not PP should be required, if so more care would be exercised in the design and functional requirements for such systems.

[Chris from Nailsea]

To be fair, even where Network Rail do not need to go through the 'normal' planning permission process, they are still obliged to consult councils, MPs^▸ (Member of Parliament) and residents who live within 660ft (200m) of any site.

As I understand it, it was the 'administrative oversight' of that requirement at Sandplace that led them to suspend work for a month there, while such a consultation was conducted.

[old original]

If it's for any official or national scheme, I think the planning permission thing is a bit of a red herring really. How many of the hundreds of mobile 'phone masts and police tetra masts that, theoretically, have needed permission to be put up over the last 10 years or so, ever got refused?

[peterswest]

Perhaps the residents of Bere Alston and Sandplace can club together and provide the consultation fees as to the plans  they want instead ?
 Take a peek at the mast just to the north of Plymouth station when your next travelling on a train...... now thats worth complaining about if you lived the 20-30 odd metres away from it , but... its up already !
pete

[Chris from Nailsea]

From the BBC^» (British Broadcasting Corporation - home page):

Plans for railway radio mast in Cornwall abandoned

The building of an 80ft (24m) railway communications mast between Liskeard and Looe in Cornwall has been halted after opposition from nearby residents.

Network Rail was criticised for poor consultation over plans for the mast.

The company said it was considering building several smaller masts along the branch line instead.

It said its new national communications system for train drivers would improve safety and help safeguard the future of branch lines.

Representatives of Network Rail met with objectors and local councillors on Thursday to discuss the mast plans and concerns over its location in Sandplace and its height.

Critic Steve Wright, who lives directly opposite where the mast was to be completed, said they "immediately agreed that the position was unacceptable".

He said: "It was as totally different approach by them and they were willing to listen and consider the arguments we put forward. Visually it was terrible. It ruined the whole look of Sandplace; and there were other considerations, such as it being a road hazard. I think that finally they felt they had to listen to us."

Network Rail said it was pleased to have been able to work with residents to reach a satisfactory compromise. It said: "The unique topography and operation of the Looe Valley railway has allowed us to consider an alternative solution, which could be less intrusive to residents yet achieve 100% communication coverage to run trains safely."

The company said it had invited key community representatives to help identify replacement sites for the smaller structures and that it hoped to present new plans in May.

[smokey]

I don't take prisoners, let's cause NR^» (Network Rail - home page) a BIG HEADACHE.

Penzance Station is I understand a LISTED building.

So who allowed Network Rail to remove the Top Light windows on the roof of Penzance station clearly seen from the road outside the Longboat Hotel?

 

[inspector_blakey]

Just a thought, but possibly the planning authority? A building being listed doesn't mean that it cannot be touched at any point in the future, just that there needs to be a consultation process and permission given before any major alterations happen.

And just as an afterthought, I can't find a listing for the station here. Not sure how authoratative that databse is, or if I've just missed it, but there's a chance you're mistaken about it being listed in the first place.

By the way, what's the relevance of this to the erection of radio masts...?