London Midland cascade cleared up...

[whole diary]

[northwesterntrains]

..well almost.  The 26 carriages that LM^▸ (London Midland - recent franchise) want to keep may or may not stay there.

http://www.dft.gov.uk/foi-responses/698001/698004/f0007261.pdf

It's actually a bit misleading in places by saying things like a 8x150 vehicles can replace a 8x156 vehicles, despite a 150 having around 15-20 seats less.

[paul7575]

This is therefore yet another different plan to that in:

 http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=8177.0

That 'latest plan' was when FGW^▸ (First Great Western) were getting 18 'vehicles', and Northern 8, all of a sudden Northern appear to be getting 20, ie an extra 12 vehicles/6 units to what was promised just before the election.  So well done to Northern's negotiating team?    (BTW^▸ (by the way) I've subtracted the 8 that are being cancelled out by the Northern to EMT^» (East Midlands Trains - about) cascade.)

However the ex FGW 142s now seem to be dependent on a suitable business case; blah blah.  It all seems to change with the weather...

Paul

[brompton rail]

Yes, but Northern are to lose the Class 180s - I.e. 5x5coaches. These are returned to East Coast who have no use for them, so who knows where they will end up!

[paul7575]

Yes, but Northern are to lose the Class 180s - I.e. 5x5coaches. These are returned to East Coast who have no use for them, so who knows where they will end up!

No, they only have 3 x 180s, and because they only have three, only two can be routinely diagrammed - it is a totally uneconomic way of providing capacity.

So as the DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) explain, they are replaced by 6 units, 12 vehicles.

Paul

[brompton rail]

Whoops, sorry about the wrong number of Adelantes. There are, of course 5 sets allocated to East Coast.

[northwesterntrains]

Yes, but Northern are to lose the Class 180s - I.e. 5x5coaches. These are returned to East Coast who have no use for them, so who knows where they will end up!

No, they only have 3 x 180s, and because they only have three, only two can be routinely diagrammed - it is a totally uneconomic way of providing capacity.

So as the DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) explain, they are replaced by 6 units, 12 vehicles.

Paul

The 180s are leased by East Coast and subleased to Northern so it's East Coast who need to either arrange for termination of the leasing agreement or sublease to another operator.

The problem with Northern having 180s is the only thing they have that can rescue a failed 180 is another 180.

The 180 diagrams effectively replaced 4 car 156 diagrams, with extra Sprinters being needed to provide the extra Manchester-Preston service following the Windermere-Manchester service being axed to allow the 185s on that service to replace the Voyagers - basically DfT created a mess by wanting Virgin to run more London services.

The only real advantage of using a 180 over 2x156s is the door opening more frequently fails when two units are coupled up and you sometimes get leaking where the corridor connectors meet.  However, a pair of 172s would certainly be more suitable than a 180 and being newer they're less likely to have doors failing to open or leaking.

[northwesterntrains]

This is therefore yet another different plan to that in:

 http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=8177.0

That 'latest plan' was when FGW^▸ (First Great Western) were getting 18 'vehicles', and Northern 8, all of a sudden Northern appear to be getting 20, ie an extra 12 vehicles/6 units to what was promised just before the election.  So well done to Northern's negotiating team?   

(BTW^▸ (by the way) I've subtracted the 8 that are being cancelled out by the Northern to EMT^» (East Midlands Trains - about) cascade.

Paul

It was 8x150s to Northern initially (16 vehicles) with 4x156s going from Northern to EMT (8 vehicles).  With 150s having around 20 seats less than a 156 it was effectively a gain of slightly more than 6 vehicles for Northern.

The change is that the FGW 142s were supposed to be replaced by the LO 150s and FGW 142s were supposed to replace the Northern 180s.  Neither Northern or FGW were happy with this as both operators would have got a net decrease in capacity from that cascade. 

Now the London Overground 150s are seen as additional not replacement stock for FGW, while the FGW 142s are seen as additional stock for Northern.

[eightf48544]

Thanks northwesterntrains for your expalnation.

However, I can't help wondering if that's what will actually happen.

[willc]

the FGW^▸ (First Great Western) 142s were supposed to be replaced by the LO 150s

You seem to be forgetting the loco-hauled sets FGW was using (and the SWT^▸ (South West Trains) 158?), which were actually replaced by the LO sets. Far as i recall, the 142 move north always was entirely dependent on 150s from LM^▸ (London Midland - recent franchise) arriving, once the 172s start to be delivered, which are, of course, seriously late.

[northwesterntrains]

the FGW^▸ (First Great Western) 142s were supposed to be replaced by the LO 150s

You seem to be forgetting the loco-hauled sets FGW was using (and the SWT^▸ (South West Trains) 158?), which were actually replaced by the LO sets. Far as i recall, the 142 move north always was entirely dependent on 150s from LM^▸ (London Midland - recent franchise) arriving, once the 172s start to be delivered, which are, of course, seriously late.

The 142s were originally due to be returned to Northern between Feb and May 2010 and the 180 sublease originally ran out before the May 2010 timetable change.  The LM cascade would never have happened in time for the May 2010 timetable change even if the 172s hadn't been delayed.  There is a GMITA document that confirms the 142 cascade was due months before the LM 150 cascade.  I'll see if it's still online anywhere.

Weren't the hired in sets FGW had supposed to be cover while the refurbishment program was going ahead and not permanent?

[vacman]

I believe the LM^▸ (London Midland - recent franchise) 150's that will be coming west are currently "with" FGW^▸ (First Great Western) but being sub-leased back to LM, we are very likely to be getting 3 LM 153's aswell.......... watch this space......

[devon_metro]

we are very likely to be getting 3 LM^▸ (London Midland - recent franchise) 153's aswell.......... watch this space......

What do we want with these hopeless units!

[rogerw]

I'm sure Graham could find a use for them

[willc]

the FGW^▸ (First Great Western) 142s were supposed to be replaced by the LO 150s

You seem to be forgetting the loco-hauled sets FGW was using (and the SWT^▸ (South West Trains) 158?), which were actually replaced by the LO sets. Far as i recall, the 142 move north always was entirely dependent on 150s from LM^▸ (London Midland - recent franchise) arriving, once the 172s start to be delivered, which are, of course, seriously late.

The 142s were originally due to be returned to Northern between Feb and May 2010 and the 180 sublease originally ran out before the May 2010 timetable change.  The LM cascade would never have happened in time for the May 2010 timetable change even if the 172s hadn't been delayed.  There is a GMITA document that confirms the 142 cascade was due months before the LM 150 cascade.  I'll see if it's still online anywhere.

Weren't the hired in sets FGW had supposed to be cover while the refurbishment program was going ahead and not permanent?

And there are doubtless a million and one documents from DafT et al around somewhere confirming all sorts of other things to do with what stock was going where and when. But stuff happens...

What exactly was FGW going to operate its services with in the intervening period if they really were supposed to have handed back the 142s before LM got its 172s? The LO sets perhaps, but with all the delays at Bombardier finishing Class 377 orders, even before the exhaust issue arose with the LO 172s, they were never going to hit that target for the release of the 142s and GMITA and all other parties involved would have known that way back in 2009.

Bombardier did their level best and got the first 172 out in March last year but we all know what happened next. Since EC didn't at that stage need the 180s back until later in the year for its Lincoln plan, the sky did not fall in. And EC's decision to ditch Lincoln probably saved DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) from having to stump up for yet more loco and coaches to tide someone over into this year.

The first FGW loco-hauled set may have started life as cover during the refresh programme, but the other was to help make up for the loss of SWT services west of Exeter from December 2009.

[vacman]

we are very likely to be getting 3 LM^▸ (London Midland - recent franchise) 153's aswell.......... watch this space......

What do we want with these hopeless units!

ummmm quite a bit really when we're currently struggling with capacity! like strengthening trains around Exeter? what a daft post!