Arriva trains wales new timetables may 2011

[whole diary]

[anthony215]

Read on  the UK^▸ (United Kingdom) railforums site that  Arriva are retiming most of their South wales - Manchester services and  now all of the Cardiff - Holyhead services will stop at Craven arms etc. The new timetable shows that a lot of Manchester - Milford Haven services will leave cardiff central heading to swansea at 35 minutes past the hour.

I have noticed 1 bad point which is that the 06:00 Carmarthen - Manchester services is now timed to leave swansea at 07:04 and doesnt have a stop at Pyle. I  know that at least 22 people regulary travel on this services when it stops at Pyle at 07:10 ( I got bored and counted how many people were getting on while i was waiting for my train). I have also  had a thought about this which is what is happening to the 07:10 Swansea - Cardiff swanline service.

I do have a copy of this proposed timetable which i had emailed to me which i would be willing to anyone who wants it if they would send me a PM withan email address.

Also does anyone know  where i can view the other proposed timetables  for  may 2011 for Arriva Trains Wales & FGW^▸ (First Great Western)?I am particulary interested in the Swanline timetable which looks like it may be slightly changed.

[ReWind]

If all the CDF^» (Cardiff - next trains) - West Wales services ( Milford Haven etc ) are departing CDF at 35mins past the hour then that's going to provide bad connection times for the ex Portsmouth services which arrive into CDF at 40mins past!!

[anthony215]

I had a copy of the proposed timetable for the Milford - Manchester services which i will happily email to you if you would like

[Jez]

Hopefully this wont mean the swanline services will be merged into the West Wales-Manchesters???

I will PM you with my e-mail address as id be interested to see this timetable. I often travel to Manchester and use the 0656 from Neath most of the times I go, so it will be interesting to see the changes.

[Hafren]

I've just had a quick look through the RailForums discussion and downloaded the draft timetable. Some comments - from a quick(ish) scan, so I might have missed some details...

Is there a separate source confirming the loss of the Pyle stop? That table doesn't show Pyle anyway, and the timings of both the 0704 and 0745 between PTA^▸ (Passenger Transport Authority) and BGN are sufficient to allow for a stop at Pyle.

But even if the 0704 does stop at Pyle, the service is much less useful than it used to be: the first train of the day is now 20 minutes later; it's not far behind the 0709 anyway (assume it's not changed); and it's no longer of any use for those who need an 8am start in Cardiff.

It would appear that rationale behind the general changes on the Marches is to make the overall service more even, with a regular interval of abotu 45 minute, compared to the current 30-30-60 pattern, with the added benefit of some Manchester services being a bit faster. The more even pattern (mainly going up) and re-allocation of stops might be beneficical in terms of balancing the load. Not so useful for Leominster, Craven Arms and Church Stretton passengers, who now have a 30-90ish pattern of service interval (they had an erratic 2-hourly service pre-SPT^▸ (Signal Post Telephone) - a partial step back, but a bit better than it was back then). I haven't looked at the other issue that always comes up when Marches retimings are on the cards: how well the new pattern connects with London trains at Newport.

The Manchester services are a bit quicker every 2 hours, but on the up line passengers west of Cardiff usually don't benefit, except on the 0600 from CMN; the others just sit at Cardiff until the later departure time. I'm not entirely against that, as it retains the consistent pattern between SWA^» (Swansea - next trains) and CDF^» (Cardiff - next trains), but it's worth noting that Swansea-Manchester passengers don't usually benefit.

Assuming no change on FGW^▸ (First Great Western), those xx:38ish departures from Cardiff going west don't look good. That's about 10 minutes before the HST^▸ (High Speed Train). When a HST is delayed (or retimed when diverted) the DMU^▸ (Diesel Multiple Unit) suffers! (Try the 2-car 1804 and 1904 when the preceding HST is late!) Going by the times at Bridgend and further west, the 1604 and 1704 are going to run as now, albeit with longer waits at Cardiff, particularly in the case of the 1604.

The 1804 from Cardiff now appears to be leaving around 1738! It looks very slow between BGN and PTA (even allowing for a possible Pyle stop), but is too quick to make any other Swanline stops. So I wonder what will happen to the 1738. If it relieves it, that's good, but there's no time to run the 1738 later as it will hold up the HST at 1748. Perhaps it will run after the HST, which will be good for the HST, but not so good for any Swanline passengers who finish work aroudn 5 but can't make the 1704! It does fill in the following Swanline gap a bit, though, and could be a better use of overall capacity. The 1804 already fills the gap for Pyle, so if it's leaving earlier, that gap is re-created unless the 1738 is running later.

Re that extra time between BGN and PTA on the 1804 (as was): I was wondering if it woudl be looped around Margam, but it's not held up for long enough to go behind the HST, and not slow enough between PTA & SWA to warrant being looped.

Those xx:36 departures from CDF appear to leave SWA at the current times, meaning they would still connect with the London trains, but at the expense of through journey times. CDF-CMN passengers, who currently benefit from an hourly through service that is usually reasonably quick, lose out.

I wonder what will happen to the peak Swanlines. It looks like the 1738 will run later, but what about the 0709? The 0550 CMN-MCR appears to be moved to 0600, which means it's moved closer to the 0616 CMN-Swanline-CDF. Perhaps that's a sign that they'll be merged between CMN and SWA (can't be too busy that early). In which case... will the 0709 run at a different time, or will it just be ECS^▸ (Empty Coaching Stock) to SWA from somewhere?

Another interesting thing... the 1704 from CDF says 'Tenby' in the 'To' row. So an improved through service there (more or less something I've suggested in the past ). To speculate on the destination being Tenby: perhaps it swaps with the Sprinter it crosses there, in order to give the 175 something useful to do, and to keep the Sprinter on the local diagram (which ends up going to Fishguard & HoW^‡(resolve) IIRC^▸ (if I recall/remember/read correctly)).

[anthony215]

I know the 06:45 from swansea to manchester is very well used.

i dont know what arriva are playing at at the 1st train from Pyle to Cardiff is at 07:10 if this is withdrawn  and there is no earlier service it will mean that some passengers will have to either travel on the 06:15 or 07:10 swansea bound trains and double back from Port Talbot which i sometimes do.

[Jez]

Thanks for e-mailing the draft timetable Anthony. 

Interesting to say the least. Its going to be confusing for some passengers having the Manchester services departing at different times every 2 hours.

Good for me tho as the 0656 from Neath-Manchester which I sometimes catch leaves at 07.15 which means it takes 4 hours exactly to get to Manchester (or less than that in reality as they often arrive at Manchester around 8/9 mins past).  Less so for passengers in Swanline stations, especially Pyle, and some of the stations between Hereford and Shrewsbury. I wonder how this is going to effect Swanline services. I am worried they may try and incorporate them into the Manchesters since some hours the Manchester service leaves Cardiff 15 mins later than they do currently.

Wouldnt it just be easier to introduce an extra service to Shrewsbury ever 2 hours on the hour the Holyheads dont run. I know extra diagrams would be needed but a Cardiff-Shrewsbury every 2 hours probabaly would only need 2 diagrams. Im sure a mix of 150/153 and 175s could stretch to that.

[Hafren]

I don't think the xx:55s will be stopping at Swanline stations; it looks like the timings at Bridgend are the same even when the Cardiff departures are later. Just as well, as it maintains connections with the xx:55 Paddington. The Heart of Wales services are still shown as running to/from Cardiff when they do now.

It would be interesting to see what happens to the 7.09 Swanline. It's possible that it just runs behind the re-timed Manchester. I suppose it might have been swapped, leaving Swansea at 6.45; although that's good as an earlier first service, it would be a bit too early for many people, and not great for most commuters, especially if there's nothing to fill in the gap that follows it.

Just had another look at the down timings. I was reading the Carmarthen times and thinking of Llanelli times; it looks like they're not waiting for the HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train) at Swansea. So continuing with reasonable through journey times, but not so good for connections. During the week, (*assuming no FGW^▸ (First Great Western) changes*) there's a connection off the xx:15 from PAD^» (Paddington (London) - next trains), but at weekends or when cancellations occur ("first to go" rule for the xx:15) the connection is the best part of an hour off the xx:45. If the xx:15 is cancelled and people connecting for Milford don't know in advance, they have a long wait. Of course, on the up, that's already what happens, but that way it's only a half hour wait on Saturdays, and one isn't connecting into a 2-hourly service.
On the other hand, if the Pembrokes continue to go at xx:05, the interval going down from Swansea is improved.

[Jez]

This retiming of the services seems to benefit passengers from Cardiff and beyond rather than passengers from West Wales/Swansea/Bridgend etc. There is going to be a long wait in Cardiff for the Manchester services every 2 hours assuming they are going to arrive at aroun xx45 as they do now. Also dont like the idea of the Manchesters departing at a different time every 2 hours, it reminds me of the days pre Dec 05.   I remember when I used to catch an early train to Manchester from Neath id get the 0656 which would go to Bristol TM^‡(resolve) in those days and then connect at either Cardiff/Newport. Im sure the connection at Cardiff used to be 0805 back then and 0819 from Newport. I cant remember whether it called at Craven Arms/Church Stretton but it used to arrive into Manchester at 11.08 or earlier.

If the Milford Haven services are departing Cardiff at xx38, nearly half an hour earlier than currently, then it makes sense they wouldnt wait at Swansea until xx00 of the following hour, It was be a very long wait in Swansea for passengers travelling through to West Wales. However not so good for connections from the Paddington services. I wonder if this will make more West Wales passengers connect into the xx55 and back again on the xx15 services to and from London as arent these generally quieter than the ones that start at Swansea?

Im guessing the reason the 0645 SWA^» (Swansea - next trains)-MAN service is retimed is because there is a London service at 0659 (or around then), later in the day therre are no London services at xx59 so it wouldnt matter if the Manchester service departed the usual xx55 rather than xx09. If a Swanline was to run at 0645 would that mean it would potentially hold up the London service? Perhaps 0640 would be better to give it that bit of extra time. Then again before 7am might be too early for people at Swanline stations to travel to work in Cardiff for a 9am start! I cant see the Swanline running behind the Manchester as there is another London departure at 0729 and 4 trains within half an hour would be tight especially if one was making Swanline stops.

[Hafren]

Has anyone seen anything more definitive re Swanline? It would be useful to see what's happening to the 0709 and 1738. Given the fairly big changes on the Marches, there might also be some changes to the balance of 2 and 3 car sets.

In the evening, it looks like Swanline will end up with something like:
1704 (as now)
1738ish (Pyle only - but why so slow on that stretch?)
1750/1800ish (retimed 1738 - assuming it still runs - otherwise long gap for Swanline!)
1904 (as now)

So potentially better spacing than now, and better use of capacity perhaps (150 going behind the HST^▸ (High Speed Train)), but not so good for a jsut-after-5pm commuter going to Baglan etc.

It's quite possible that the 0709 is unaltered. With the Carmarthen-Manchester running later, it might be wasteful to run it through from CMN, but otherwise it could be the same. But two ATW^▸ (Arriva Trains Wales (former TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company))) services within 5 minutes is not the greatest use of resources. The "new" 0704 is just behind the HST so won't pick up too many passengers. The timings allow it to stop at Pyle, so perhaps the 0709 could lose its Pyle stop, reducing impact on the following HST. That might in turn allow it to run straight through without being overtaken at Pencoed, which would allow the Pencoed and Pontyclun frequency to revert to being more even - currently it ends up just in front of the 7.45 as a result of being looped.

If the 0709 runs earlier (6.40 perhaps), Pyle doesn't lose its early train, but then the main peak Swanline train is too early unless there's a new service later in the peak. The only other slot that wouldn't be too late would be immediately after the 7.28 (so about 7.32) - a tight window, but if it doesn't stop at Pyle (covered by the 7.04 and 7.45?) it could perhaps stay ahead of the 7.45, which acts as a stopping service between PTA^▸ (Passenger Transport Authority) and CDF^» (Cardiff - next trains). But where would the extra stock come from? I suppose if it goes at 6.40 it would be able to use the set that forms the 8.xx CDF-SWA^» (Swansea - next trains)-SHR^» (Shrewsbury - next trains), and then the set that currently forms the 7.09 could go at 7.33. But somehow I'm not convinced that anything as exotic will happen... perhaps it'll just be the 7.09 as now, with Pyle just suffering a 20 minute later first train.

On the down, passengers travelling from the Marches to the West might benefit a little bit: currently trains sit at Cardiff for about 10 minutes going west, and it looks like that wait is reduced a bit, saving a few minutes. Not so good for passengers travelling from London to Milford on a Saturday. It might, however, help to justify the existence of the PAD^» (Paddington (London) - next trains)-CDF service!

[Hafren]

The SWML^▸ (South Western Mail Line) timetable has been uploaded now... so some initial comments!

The 7.09 up Swanline still comes from Carmarthen, but has been nudged a few minutes later behind the re-timed 6.00 (retaining the old timings behind the 'new' 6.00 would have created a pointlessly short service gap). It remains a few minutes later from SWA^» (Swansea - next trains), which isn't too much of a problem because it's still looped at Pencoed; this is good in that it reduces the Bridgend-Pencoed journey time, as the wait in the loop was longer than it needed to be before, but the reduced headway out of Bridgend increases the performance risk for the 7.28 Paddington slightly.

In a fit of sense, a Pyle stop has been added to the first Carmarthen to Manchester, giving Pyle an hour earlier start than it currently has. However, the later timing of the 6.00 from CMN means there's quite a long gap between the first two trains, and no longer anything suitable for anyone who wants to start at 8am in Cardiff.

The 19.00/19.10 oddity no longer exists - the 19.00 is to be the through service. The 19.10 moves later because the 17.38 no longer exists as such to form it in time.
 
Pembroke Dock up departures are moved from xx:05 (typically) to xx:09 - a sensible move as they usually just waited for 10 minutes for the down arrival at Tenby. At first glance the service generally looks a bit more consistent as well.

The move earlier from xx:04 down from Cardiff helps to increase turnaround times at Carmarthen and Milford, which should be good for performance. I would guess that the Manchester turnarounds are a bit shorter as a result (xx:30 dep now; is it xx:45 currently?).

The move to xx:35 going west from SWA looks good, if a bit tight, for anyone wanting to travel from Swansea to Fishguard on the daytime service.

As previously noted, the 17.51 no longer goes to Pembroke Dock. In fact, it leaves earlier, at 17.35, which makes the evening peak out of Swansea much more even (1705, 1735, 1809). It might also be good for balancing loadings - currently it's long gap, 153 (usually), short gap, 3-car 175. The swap happens at Tenby as already suggested to maintain the right usage of sets.

A new 19.35 service - good use of stock; the 19.23ish arrival from PMD has been redundant since the 20.05ish Pembroke was merged with the Manchester service.

The 17.38 and 18.04 from CDF^» (Cardiff - next trains) are effectively swapped. That'll be good for loadings as the 17.38 isn now a 175 (a bit longer) and won't be carrying Swanline passengers, with the local service trailing the HST^▸ (High Speed Train). Also means a better spacing of Swanline services, but not so good for Swanliners who can be at the station for 5.30.

The Manchester-Milford that currently runs via the District line is no longer a through service from Manchester and the replacement local service goes via Swansea. Some shuffling of down services from Swansea aroudn that time, but it looks like there are no gaping gaps. The later Manchester-Carmarthen does go via the District, leaving a bit of a gap from SWA, except on Fridays, but that's probably no great problem at that time of night. I wonder what effect that'll have on usage of the 23.45 Fishguard, which gains a Gowerton stop to compensate. It would appear that the 23.15 CDF-CMN no longer stops at local stations west of Swansea - just LLE & CMN. So the last train for the others (including Pembrey) is 23.45; Mon-Thurs the last link from Swansea to Kidwelly & Ferryside is 22.07. I wonder how many people return home to the likes of Ferryside at that time of night; given that the service runs anyway it might be useful to have the stops at least on a Friday.  Also the 22.07 departure is earlier than it is/was, which means it will lose a connection out of the 19.15 from PAD^» (Paddington (London) - next trains), i.e. the last Paddington-Milford journey will be half an hour earlier.

[anthony215]

I have noticed that the 17:10 Swansea - Cardiff services goes through to Holyhead. I have emailed a copy of the local timetable to those who  emailed me yesterday. ( Hopefully a class 158/175 will be used as the current 153 cannot cope and frquently delays the 17:28 Swansea - London service following behind)

The new timetable is ok apart from  the 06:00 Carmarthen - Cardiff service which i feel should have been left alone and that there is no swanline service between 19:30 & 23:15 apart from the 21:04 which stops at Pyle

[Hafren]

My overall impression is that the spacing of services is improved, but some local stations and connections lose out.

It's possible that the 17.10's diagram is swapped at some point during the day; I wouldn't want to see a 153 or 150 on such a long-distance working, especially as it looks like it's intended to be a flagship fast service. Alternatively it could be coupled to a 158 at Cardiff. On the Marches table it's not shown as a through service...

[Jez]

The Manchester-South Wales currently depart Manchester at xx30 - until a few years back the departure was xx34. So they have a 15 minute turnaround time at Manchester which is probabaly plenty as this service tends to arrive early - as early as 6 or 7 mins past sometimes.

The 1900/1910 was a bit pointless so im glad thats been changed.

Thanks for e-mailing the latest timetable. I will probabaly post comments once ive read it, but good to hear there will be a through service from the Swansea to Holyhead. I wonder what unit will run it tho as the 17.10 swanline tends to be a 153 as it traces back to an earlier HOW service.

[anthony215]

I think the class 153 used on the 17:10 Swansea -Cardiff service is normally formed by the 1st  heart of wales service from Shrewsbury but sometimes the units are again swapped at Swansea before they work the 13:10 Swansea - Cardiff & 13:15 Swansea- Shrewsbury,