Return portion restrictions

[whole diary]

[TerminalJunkie]

When you make a return journey you must make the outward journey before the return

Really? Where does it say that, then?

[devon_metro]

Isn't it just a case of common sense? Return comes after outward in all aspects of life...

[JayMac]

Common sense? On the railways? Shome mishtake, shurely?

[Chris from Nailsea]

As TerminalJunkie has already pointed out - all it states, in the National Rail Conditions of Carriage, is:

17. Using a return ticket
A return ticket (including a two-part return ticket) is only valid for the outward journey shown on that ticket if the ticket is completely unused. You may not use the outward part of a return ticket after you have used the return part.

Nothing there about having to actually use the outward part before you use the return part.  And how would anyone know whether you've actually used the outward part or not, on the 'return' journey?  It could have been swallowed up by a barrier machine, never to be seen again!

 

[SDS]

I do believe that in the old NRCoC^▸ (National Rail Conditions of Carriage) (06/07?) pre July 2006 (which had a picture of booking office on it) it actually stated that for an outward portion to be valid the return portion must be in your possession.

Just found this on The Manual/Fares and Retail Publications Portal.

Customers travelling with the wrong portion of a Return ticket

The outward portion of a two piece return ticket is not valid for travel unless accompanied by a completely unused return portion. You should assume that any stamper or nipper marks on the return portion of a ticket are evidence of use or part use.

You should refuse to accept the outward portion of a customer's return ticket if:

he/she claims the return portion has been lost or wrongly collected, or
the return portion has been stamped or nipped
You should refuse to accept the return portion of a return ticket if the date and time shown on the ticket indicate that the outward journey could not have been physically and legitimately completed, or part completed, taking into account any applicable general or break of journey restrictions.

If you have refused to accept a return ticket on the grounds described above you should offer to sell the customer the appropriate unrestricted single or return fare for their journey unless you believe they are deliberately attempting to avoid payment. The customer should be advised to address any complaint or claim to your company's Customer Services Manager (as instructed locally).

If the customer refuses to pay or you believe they are deliberately attempting to avoid payment you should withdraw the ticket being presented, issue a free excess ticket for the correct journey details and submit a Report of Irregular Travelling.

[Chris from Nailsea]

Hmm. 

Again, all that that rather dated guidance requires is that the 'return portion' of a return ticket isn't used before the 'outward portion' could have been used: it doesn't say that the 'outward portion' must have been used?

 

[TerminalJunkie]

You should refuse to accept the outward portion of a customer's return ticket [...]

But we're not talking about using the outward portion of anything...

I arrive at a station at 0600, and buy an off-peak day return to somewhere else which is subject to a B1 restriction (ie. outward not valid until after 0930, return by any train), so I stick it my wallet, and walk out of the station where someone is waiting to give me a lift to the somewhere else shown on my ticket. I get there at 0700, and finish what I am doing at 0800. There is a train at 0815 back to where I came from.

Why can't I use the return portion of my ticket on this train? And don't just say why, please; I want proof that your not making it up.

Oh, and the Retail Manual doesn't count, as it is a purely internal document for use by retail staff, and therefore isn't part of my contract with the train company.

[inspector_blakey]

I want proof that your not making it up.

"you're", surely?

But joking aside, as I understand it, there's nothing to stop you doing just that. I assume, taking the argument a little further, that you could technically purchase a return ticket from your destination to your origin, then toss away the outward portion and use the return as a single ticket to circumvent any time restrictions. I don't think that's explicitly forbidden, but I suspect that circumstances would have to be quite specific (i.e. only making a single journey, and the cost of the off-peak return relative to the peak single) for this to be worthwhile.

[johoare]

I'm struggling to find where I read it before but....

Fairly recently, booking a return ticket, I read in the terms and conditions that you can only use the outward portion of a return ticket, if you still have the return..

So that stops people using the return tickets completely the wrong way round than they were intended.. But doesn't stop someone just using the return.. whenever that is valid to be used..

[TerminalJunkie]

I'm struggling to find where I read it before

Try scrolling up a bit... 

[SDS]

You should refuse to accept the return portion of a return ticket if the date and time shown on the ticket indicate that the outward journey could not have been physically and legitimately completed, or part completed, taking into account any applicable general or break of journey restrictions.

So reading that, I would say that you could not have legitimately completed the outward journey based on the time restrictions, so therefore the return would become invalid if used before the outward restriction finishes.

here's some screenshots which say im not making it up.

[JayMac]

Where is that information available to the passenger? As TJ said upthread - The Manual is an internal staff document, so cannot be used as part of the terms and conditions attached to ticket restrictions. To do so would be unfair and the passenger is therefore protected by The Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999.

NRCoC^▸ (National Rail Conditions of Carriage), which is publically available, doesn't disallow it. Also the booking engine examples mentioned upthread allow it, offering the ticket for sale and including a travel itinerary and seat reservation/specific train. Therefore we have another loophole. Fair avoidance not fair evasion. Well found Brucey. 

[Worcester_Passenger]

It seems to me that this is another example where the conditions of carriage have not kept up - rather like the maximum sizes of luggage, which are stuck in a Brief Encounter time-warp.

These conditions assume that the return ticket is a 1" x 2" piece of pasteboard where the outward and return halves are physically part of the same ticket, and where you tear off the outward half.

Whoever has the job of maintaining the conditions of carriage needs to get out more.

[paul7575]

The heading in the extract from the manual isn't very accurate, is it.

The first subparagraph and the bullet points describe using the outward coupon either without the return, or with an already used return, so the heading should describe this, eg 'Passenger travelling on outward journey without a valid return portion, or with the return portion already used'.

The second subparagraph is a different situation entirely, so it should also have a new heading, such as 'Passenger travelling on the return leg of a journey before the outward leg can have been completed' or something like that...

Paul

 

[TheLastMinute]

For goodness sake, why is almost everyone so instant these days that if something isn't written down in black and white then it doesn't count and that you have "them" on a "technicality". It really is quite straight forward - the clue is in the name of the ticket.

Look, when a passenger buys a return ticket, they are buying a service to transport them outward from Station A to Station B and then to return them from Station B to Station A. It is surely self evident that one can not return from somewhere before they could have possibly arrived. Earlier in the thread TerminalJunkie gave an example of getting a lift to Station B and then travelling. In what way would that change the agreement one has with TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) to take you somewhere and back again? The fact you got a lift is nothing to do with the TOC and doesn't change what they have to provide one jot.

The NCoC doesn't say you can't use a ticket more than once*, only that it can't be used after it's expiry date. Using the same logic as some others, one could argue that the lack of a rule within the NCoC means it's OK to reuse a return ticket 50 times before it's expiry date. It plainly isn't.

On the other hand, if the booking engine says you can use the 0730 from Swindon, then you've got implied permission from the TOC to use the ticket in that way, for that particular journey on that particular day. My guess is that this simply an oversight as no one as foreseen the need to put the rule into RJIS to stop a booking that in the past would have captured by good old human common sense.

Cheers,
TLM

* At least, I hope it does. I skimmed through it and didn't see anything. If it does, I'm going to look mighty foolish and would gladly accept correction!