Apology after woman forced off train in ticket error. (Western Gazette 06/01/11)

[whole diary]

[JayMac]

I believe that the fares system should be very substantialy simplified, with only three different fares available (in each class of travel) for any journey.
These should be known as peak, off peak, and bargain and be identified by the colours red, yellow and green on the ticket and in the timetable.
Peak would be similar to the present full fare
Off peak would be about 60% of the peak fare
Bargain would be about 30% of the peak

What is your benchmark 'Peak fare'? Is it priced according to distance, popularity of route, origin or destination being popular, type of rolling stock, or some other criteria. Also where does government (national and local) subsidy come into the equation?

If this benchmark is too high, then many leisure travellers could be priced off the railways, even at 60% or 30%.

Are these trains red, yellow and green throughout their journey or are the bands time dependent or origin/destination dependent?

If they are banded throughout their journey then that would be grossly unfair on passengers boarding at 11am at the final stop having to pay a peak fare because the trains started at its origin at 0700.

What if the bands are time dependent - for instance you have a 'peak' until 9am? Passenger A boarding at Anytown at 0855 pays a peak fare to Megacity, Passenger B boarding at Smalltown at 0905 pays only 60% of what Passenger A pays less a bit more for the slightly shorter journey. Passenger A then realises it is cheaper to drive to Smalltown (inc fuel and parking costs) and get on the train there. Clogging up local roads, and as more people get wise to this, no one uses the train between Anytown and Smalltown at this time.

If the fare bands are origin/destination dependent then you may still have folks realising it is cheaper to drive part way and then pick up their train when it has become an 'Off Peak' or 'Bargain'.

What about trains that are nominally at 'Off Peak' or 'Bargain' times but are popular for other reasons like use by shoppers on a Sunday or to holiday destinations? Do you price these at 'Peak' to discourage use?

You say there are to be NO discounts on busy rush hour services? What about cross country services that are busiest through the Midlands - are these to be Yellow or Green trains until an arbitrary point - become Red, then revert to Yellow or Green at some other point?

To contain the greed of TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company), peak fares would be restricted to no more than 25% of the timetabled services, and bargain fares would have to be offered on at least 25% of services, the remainder being being off peak.

Who decides that? Some government mandarin far removed from the operation of timetables and services, or the TOC who could easily manipulate the services they run to maximise revenue (and profit) against that 25/50/25 split? What about where the loadings throughout the day do not neatly match that 25/50/25 split? A TOC forced to stick rigidly to this ratio would soon start manipulating the timetable for its benefit, rather than the passengers.

Likewise at present, full fare customers often have to stand.....

How would that change under your system, particularly at 'Peak' times on commuter services?

So, sorry. Too many issues to cover with such a 'simplified' system. A nightmare to introduce and probably massively un-passenger friendly as well.

I agree that we have a complex system at present and it is one that needs tidying up, but your system, broadgage, is rather too utopian. Sorry to shoot it down so comprehensively. Particularly as I can't offer anything more than to say that the current system 'needs tidying up.' 

[grahame]

Written before I saw Dr BNM's reply ... I'll still post as this may add at least some snippets

Logic and simplicty says rail fares should all the the same price per person per mile, mileage to be worked out as the crow flies and tickets valid by any route that a reasonable person might use (without him / her taking an odd route to make an intermediate appointment) ... then you get into the "but"s.

Broadgage - you've chosen to add a commercial peak / regular / marginal time bias, and a routing wrinkle on the ultimate simplity I started from.  Problem is ... even with those apparently simple wrinkles you'll get all sorts of wheezes and anomolies.

Let's take the 16:49 from Great Malvern to Southampton.  It starts quiet(?) so offpeak from Great Malvern, but then at Worcerster at 17:02 it becomes quite lively, and it's a peak train through Cheltenham and Gloucester to Swindon.  By the time it leaves there at 18:44, it's offpeak again, and by the time it's the 19:40 from Westbury to Southampton (where it arrives at 20:48, it's bargain.  Do you do the fare based on where people join?   Where they leave?   The most or least expensive zone they travel through?  For each leg added up? ... or make the whole train peak as it runs some peak sections (so the 20:12 Salisbury to Southmapton is peak, but the 19:49 service which starts from Salisbury would be bargain).  And if you charge based ona whole journey, do you allow split tickets? 

To some extent I'm playing "Devil's Advocate" here ... I would love to see the system genuinely fair, straightforward and easy to understand.  But as soon as you start moving away from fixed, per mile, fare for all you get complications ... and fixed, per mile for all would probably be a loading and marketing disaster.

I note that you're proposing just three fares.  You may upset a few people ...
* Daily travellers would rather like to be able to buy season tickets at lower fares.
* Families with clutches of children might like a reduction for the children.
* Groups eligable for railcards might feel hard done by even though you're offering true equality
* We'll let staff on duty travel for free of course (has the driver got a ticket? ;-) ) but you may have a bit of a storm from staff travelling when not 'clocked on'
* And how about the tourist trade which currently sells tickets and passes to nonresidents at crazy-low prices.

Problem is ... we could probably work out a much fairer system ... but it's hard to see how we would get there from where we are today. 

The $64,000 question is "if the system were changed to a flat fare, what would the price be?".  I understand that the curent rail traveller pays an average of 19p per mile, so that's a fare of ... oh, gosh - I guess the current Swindon to London Season ticket holder might not be as unhappy as I suspected!

[Lee]

I would like to see a simplified fares structure, an overall reduction in fares is probably unrealistic, but a simpler and more logical system would be a great benifit.
I see no need for more than three fares (in each class of travel) for any journey.
Peak fares to be charged in the rush hours, similar to the present full fare.
Off peak fares to be about about 50% of the peak fare, charged for most of the day outside the rush hour.
Bargain fares to be about 25% of the full fare, and only available on very lightly used services, probably early morning or late night and/or for journys made against the main flow.

The fare payable should be determined by the time of travel, I see no merit whatsoever in different fares for returning the same day, or for staying overnight.
I see no merit in different fares, on the same train according to when booked. Full fare, off peak fare, or bargain fare should be payable according to the time of travel, not the time of booking.
The three different fares should be colour coded and included in the timetables, and the tickets should be the same colour.
E.G. "peak time, full fare trains are shown in RED and only RED tickets are valid on these services"
"off peak services are shown in YELLOW and YELLOW tickets may be used on these trains"
"super bargain services are shown in GREEN and the GREEN tickets may be used on these services"

Expensive tickets would of course be valid on cheaper services.
TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) would be allowed to alter which colour tickets are allowed on which trains, but only at timetable changes, not every few days.

The present system is far too complex, even the staff often dont know what is valid, and what is best value for a given trip.

How much simpler it would be be for those on a budget, to think "I can only afford the green fare, therefore I must consult the colour coded timetable, and see which trains printed in GREEN will meet my needs"

These sorts of errors seem to occur regularly, and of course sometimes the passenger is wrong either through their own fault, or from having been wrongly advised by railway staff.

I believe that the present system is far too complicated and beyond the understanding of many employees and customers.

I believe that the fares system should be very substantialy simplified, with only three different fares available (in each class of travel) for any journey.
These should be known as peak, off peak, and bargain and be identified by the colours red, yellow and green on the ticket and in the timetable.
Peak would be similar to the present full fare
Off peak would be about 60% of the peak fare
Bargain would be about 30% of the peak

To contain the greed of TOCs, peak fares would be restricted to no more than 25% of the timetabled services, and bargain fares would have to be offered on at least 25% of services, the remainder being being off peak.

When two routes are available, such as via London or not via London different fares for the two routes could be charged, but still only 3 fares for each route.

The present system brings the railway into dis-repute, a great many dont travel because it is too complicated. Just look at some of the lengthy threads on these forums regarding fares.

The red, yellow, or green fare should be charged according to the time of travell, not the time of booking or ticket purchase.
At present it costs several times more to turn up and go, then to book in advance, for the same train.
Passengers who miss a connection can be "fined" hundreds of pounds for travelling on another off peak train than the one booked, why ?

Likewise at present, full fare customers often have to stand whilst those with discounted tickets purchased in advance get seats.
Under my proposed system, all tickets on the same train, between the same stations, should be the same price. No question of ANY discounted fares on busy rush hour services, and likewise no need to pay the full peak time fare for off peak travel, event at the last minute.

What's the thinking behind the subtle changes that you have made to your original proposal, broadgage?

[paul7575]

This problem of 'when is the peak' is presumably exactly why offpeak fares are still available on XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) all day (0500 onwards to be accurate) if you are travelling from southwest of Bristol or south of Reading to points north of Derby and somewhere equivalent up in the NW.

Paul

[laird]

Isn't there a scheme for investigating such ticketing queries after the event, perhaps I have mis-understood but couldn't the ticket inspector have withdrawn the ticket and submitted it for irregularity checks (TIR^▸ (Travel Irregularity Report)?).
Then quietly and peacefully the matter could have been investigated and an invoice sent to the lady subsequently if it was found to have been an off peak ticket used on a peak service.

As an enthusiast I am always a little concerned by the lack of knowledge of how to check and issue the appropriate fare on the portable machines and ineed even at the station.
Recently I bravely attempted to buy a rail rover ticket from the excess fares window at Reading, while the little office is equipped to have a full ticket machine instead the clerk was using a portable machine.
I managed to teach the clerk how to get to the rover enquiry menu (not easy talking through the window trying to look at the screen side on), only to find that the fare was not listed, fortunately the Cross Country conductor was straight on the case and using apparently the same machine got to the same menu where the prices were listed.
It left me wondering if part of the problem could be that not all machines are fully programmed or if perhaps each rail company has its own setup? 

[broadgage]

On local journies, the train would be classified as red, yellow or green throughout in the interests of simplicity.
This is clearly unreasonable for long distance trains which would have to be different colours for differing parts of the trip.

Some standing by those who have paid the most expensive fare might be unavoidable, but would be reduced by not offering any discounted tickets on peak hour trains. If it is hlighted in red, then full fare only.
I dont think it reasonable for full fare payers to have to stand on very busy services because the seats are booked by those with discounted tickets.
"if a train is expected to be full and standing, dont sell discounted tickets"
Likewise, on a service that is expected to be lightly loaded, no one should be expected to pay the full peak fare, even if they arrive at the last minute.

As regards families with numerous children, I am sure that they would like even greater discounts, but I would not give any more.
It could be argued that the discounts for children are already excesive ! they pay a much reduced fare but still expect a seat. Very young children do not pay at all, but are often placed in seats whilst fare payers stand.

[broadgage]

What about trains that are nominally at 'Off Peak' or 'Bargain' times but are popular for other reasons like use by shoppers on a Sunday or to holiday destinations? Do you price these at 'Peak' to discourage use?

If the train is expected to be full and standing, then it would be red, full fare only.
If expected to be fairly busy, then yellow.
If expected to be lightly used, then green.

The TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) would be allowed to re-classify trains as needs change, but only at timetable changes not whenever they fancy it.

[broadgage]

Likewise at present, full fare customers often have to stand.....

How would that change under your system, particularly at 'Peak' times on commuter services?

On very local services I doubt that my proposal would help at all.
On longer distance routes though it would help.
Take as an example, the very busy 18-03 and 19-03 from Paddington. At present some full fare passengers have to stand to Taunton or beyond, whilst seats are taken by those holding discounted tickets. Under my proposal these services would be full fare only, no discounted tickets except perhaps West of Plymouth.

[devon_metro]

Likewise at present, full fare customers often have to stand.....

How would that change under your system, particularly at 'Peak' times on commuter services?

On very local services I doubt that my proposal would help at all.
On longer distance routes though it would help.
Take as an example, the very busy 18-03 and 19-03 from Paddington. At present some full fare passengers have to stand to Taunton or beyond, whilst seats are taken by those holding discounted tickets. Under my proposal these services would be full fare only, no discounted tickets except perhaps West of Plymouth.

You'll have a fairly empty train then. The solution is simple, get a reservation on the service you wish to travel on.