DMUs to stay put?

[whole diary]

[northwesterntrains]

Rumours are circulating that DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) want Northern sublease the 2 other EC leased 180s in addition to the 3 they have subleased, with the 180s not being expected to be taken by another franchised operator before May 2013.  If this goes ahead apparently FGW^▸ (First Great Western) will keep the 142s in addition to the 150s cascaded from London Overground and London Midland.

[JayMac]

Could I ask where these rumours are circulating? 

[northwesterntrains]

northernrailways.co.uk
railforums.co.uk
greatbritishrailways.com

[IndustryInsider]

If correct, and that's a big if of course, then what a dreadful waste of a 125mph train.  Good for capacity I suppose, but it makes you wonder how Northern Rail could afford to lease such an expensive train on routes that Pacers or Sprinters normally ply, but none of the long-distance operators can, or want to?  Still, any home is better than no home I suppose!

[paul7575]

It's the relative leasing costs of 7 x 142 compared to 3 x 180 that suggests to me the whole idea is totally unrealistic.  As a subsidised TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company), Northern are not really in a position to optionally lease 2 extra 180s without DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) approval are they?

I have similar doubts about ATW^▸ (Arriva Trains Wales (former TOC)) automatically using 'their' 150s when they get them back from FGW^▸ (First Great Western).  More units in use daily needs more subsidy - where's it going to come from?

Paul

[northwesterntrains]

Relating to 180 running costs with Northern.  Northern receive a subsidy from GMPTE^▸ (Greater Manchester Passenger Transport Executive. Now TfGM^▸ (Transport for Greater Manchester. )) to run the 180s on weekday Hazel Grove/Manchester Vic to Preston/Blackpool services.  For weekend services no subsidy is received and Northern do not use the 180s at weekends even if it means 200 people crammed on a single 142.  If 2 or 3 180s are out of action on a weekday Northern will only receive the full subsidy for that day if they use 2x156s to fill in for the out of action 180, 2x142s, 2x150s or a 142 attached to a 150 would see a reduced subsidy, while a 2 car unit or cancellations would see no subsidy.

Northern's subsidy from DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) is now relatively small as the subsidy was awarded on a 0% growth basis and Northern have had over 25% growth meaning they have had to refund a large chunk of their DfT subsidy.  However, like other operators Northern do not get 25% extra stock based on the 25% extra passengers.

Also note with the 180s that they are currently leased to East Coast, owned by the government.  East Coast doesn't still require them so they are costing the government money if they are not leased to an operator.

[IndustryInsider]

Another example of franchise folly by the sounds of it.  Thanks for the detailed description of the arrangements 'northwesterntrains' - do you have any idea what the GMPTE^▸ (Greater Manchester Passenger Transport Executive. Now TfGM^▸ (Transport for Greater Manchester. )) subsidy amounts to?

[northwesterntrains]

No.  It's likely classified information than isn't available except to GMPTE^▸ (Greater Manchester Passenger Transport Executive. Now TfGM^▸ (Transport for Greater Manchester. )), Northern and possibly DfT^» (Department for Transport - about).  Although, I imagine it relates to the difference in cost between running a 2 car 156 and a 180.

[eightf48544]

No.  It's likely classified information than isn't available except to GMPTE^▸ (Greater Manchester Passenger Transport Executive. Now TfGM^▸ (Transport for Greater Manchester. )), Northern and possibly DfT^» (Department for Transport - about).  Although, I imagine it relates to the difference in cost between running a 2 car 156 and a 180.

In theory it should (ought) to be available under the Freedom of Information Act from D(a)FT. But even though it's our money they will probably try and quote "Commercial Confidentiality".

[northwesterntrains]

No.  It's likely classified information than isn't available except to GMPTE^▸ (Greater Manchester Passenger Transport Executive. Now TfGM^▸ (Transport for Greater Manchester. )), Northern and possibly DfT^» (Department for Transport - about).  Although, I imagine it relates to the difference in cost between running a 2 car 156 and a 180.

In theory it should (ought) to be available under the Freedom of Information Act from D(a)FT. But even though it's our money they will probably try and quote "Commercial Confidentiality".

On the same basis the average running costs of Pacers and Sprinters compared to Turbostars, Electrostars etc should be made available then we have all the facts when DfT claims the South East has the most profitable franchises.