First Capital Connect staff 'cannot give medical help' (BBC News 21/09/2010)

[whole diary]

[JayMac]

From the BBC^» (British Broadcasting Corporation - home page):

Staff at a rail company gave no medical assistance to a commuter who collapsed, it has emerged.

The man collapsed three weeks ago at St Albans station on a line into London run by First Capital Connect.

But bystanders were forced to give medical help. The company later said even if staff were trained, they were only permitted to help other employees.

A First Capital Connect spokesman said its staff did their best.

Rachel Hughes was one of the commuters who tried to help.

She said: "They [the staff] were milling around, not very certain what to do. We then had a member of the public who shouted for a doctor. There did not seem to be one." She added: "At this point there were quite a few members of the public getting agitated by the staff, saying, 'have you not got a first aider?' They were saying, 'We haven't got first aid training'."

'Moral obligation'

After Mrs Hughes complained, First Capital Connect e-mailed her saying that while some employees were trained in first aid, "this is only offered to staff and not customers".

Mrs Hughes added: "I would say it is a moral obligation to provide first aiders."

Although it is not illegal to refuse to provide passengers with medical assistance, the Health and Safety Executive "strongly recommends employees should consider the public".

A First Capital Connect spokesman said: "Our staff always try to do their best to help customers. In this case they identified a passenger on a train whose health was causing them concern so they encouraged him to leave the train early at St Albans. After he had left the train he collapsed. Staff did what they could until the emergency services arrived."

[thetrout]

Can't say much for the source, but it get's worse.............

http://www.penaltyfareappeal.co.uk/wordpress/?p=633

[vacman]

What they don't mention is the fact that if you try and give someone first aid and do it wrong then you can be sued, hence why I wouldn't have given first aid as the ambulance chasers would soon be after you!

[JayMac]

So what's the point of having First Aid training at all then?

Many years ago I completed the St John Ambulance First Aid at Work course. I still retain the knowledge and despite not having an up to date certificate, I wouldn't hesitate to use my knowledge if needed. The fear of being sued would not even enter my mind if I was doing all I could, to the best of my ability, to preserve the life of my fellow human being.

Back in 2002 I had to use my training for real, even though my 3 year certificate had lapsed. I was witness to a very nasty RTC involving a moped rider. She had been side-swiped by a car that was turning right on the A38 outside Taunton. The moped rider was hit with such force that her helmet had come off in the impact. I estimated on my witness statement that she was thrown at least 20 feet into the air. On reaching the casualty I could see she was in a very bad way with obvious serious injuries to her limbs. A femur sticking out of a thigh through jeans is not a pretty sight. I'm no fan of the sight of blood, but surprised myself in not being physically sick.

I did the DR ABC routine to check on her airway and vital signs and whilst doing this the casualty's heart and breathing stopped. I was joined by an off duty nurse and we started CPR with me pumping and the nurse breathing, along with a third person attempting to stem blood loss from both legs. Fortunately she was lying on her back after the collision so we didn't have the dilemma of whether to move her to affect CPR. We kept this up until an ambulance arrived (some 15 mins) twice getting the poor girl's heart and breathing going again.

A week or so later, I got a very nice letter from the girl's father, thanking me for my help on the day along with an offer of money, which I declined and suggested he donate to charity instead. A follow up letter 4 months later from the girl herself thanked me for saving her life - she was on the way to full recovery - and we kept in touch for a couple of years.

I wouldn't hesitate to do the same again. If I'd thought "Sod it, I don't want to risk being sued", there's a good chance she'd've died there on the dual carriageway.  I think that the risk of being sued is grossly overstated anyway. Sued for what exactly? It can't be medical negligence if your not a medical professional.

Only bad thing about the day (apart from the visible injuries) was the first Paramedic on the scene who assumed one of us had removed her helmet. Running up and shouting "Who the **** took her helmet off?" My reply was equally forthright!

Edited for typos

[vacman]

My point is we're not trained in first aid so I wouldn't have a clue what to do! I notice that some platform staff at EXD^» (Exeter St Davids - next trains) and PLY^» (Plymouth - next trains) are First aid trained though.

[JayMac]

It is an interesting dilemma vacman. My personal belief is that First Aid training should be part of the National Curriculum and then refresher training should be provided by further education establishments as well as all employers to all staff.

Purely hypothetical, and not picking on you personally vacman, but what would you do if faced with a casualty and you were on your own? Let's say you had no working mobile as well.....

[devon_metro]

I've done first aid training although I can't remember much of it!

[JayMac]

There has been no legal precedent in the UK^▸ (United Kingdom) where someone has been sued for inappropiate or inaffective use of First Aid.

http://www.reactfirst.co.uk/live/Tips8.asp

This document provides some background to the law, both criminal and civil:

http://www.resus.org.uk/pages/legal.pdf

The final paragraph of the document is perhaps the most salient:

Many countries, including a number of states in the USA, have what is known as Good Samaritan legislation which gives people who provide emergency first aid various levels of immunity from legal liability. The principles of this have been considered in more detail in preceding sections. During the ten years that has elapsed since the original publication of this guide, an attempt has been made to introduce such legislation into the UK, but this did not succeed. In any event, it remains unclear whether it is, in fact, necessary. The UK has a far less litigious culture than the USA, and there is little yet to suggest that claims of this type are being actively pursued. It is, in practice, extremely difficult to envisage (and no precedent has yet been set) how a victim could successfully sue an individual who rendered him aid in an emergency situation. If anyone were to bring a successful claim, it is likely that the rescuer would have to have acted in a grossly negligent fashion and, if this was the case, it would probably not be desirable to introduce legislation to protect him.

[paul7575]

Not quite as fraught as your example 'bnm', but I have used my 30 year old St John first aid course knowledge a couple of times in anger, both for bad cuts, and once simply to help an old fella who was having a bad time in the heat.

I think the advantage a proper course gives you, even without regular refreshers, is that if they use good injury simulations, you should be able to take charge of the situation without turning away in shock yourself!

Paul

[Tim]

What they don't mention is the fact that if you try and give someone first aid and do it wrong then you can be sued, hence why I wouldn't have given first aid as the ambulance chasers would soon be after you!

Sorry but don't agree.  Regardless of your training, you have a human and moral responsibiltity to help if you can.  If you are not trained then you can't be criticised for not knowing what to do, but if you don't need to have any training to do the minimum which would be to call help, talk to the casuality, perhaps try and keep them warm.  Even if you fail and the person dies because you are clueless about how to save them, better that they die with you talking their hand and talking to them.     

But the story re FCC^▸ (First Capital Connect) does seem rather garbled and I don't think we can criticise without having more details.  Criticising someone for not giving "medical assistance"  is unfair unless that person had been to medical school.  But you don't need any training to comfort and talk to someone who has collapsed. 

[vacman]

What do you determine as "first aid", Iwouldn't hesitate to keep someone warm etc but that isn't "medical help".

[paul7575]

According to Railway Eye. this seems to be another 'non story'.

http://railwayeye.blogspot.com/2010/09/first-for-walking-by-on-other-side.html

The modern media just cannot wait to criticise first and sort out what really happened later, usually with their error being reported on p94...

Did the story ever really need to be reported at all in the first place?

Paul

[SDS]

Everyone at FGW^▸ (First Great Western) (at least the FGW employees, i.e. not agency) get trained in Emergency First Aid when they join the company in the induction months.....

I have always tried to keep my First Aid information up to date. We also have Defibs on most of the platforms here at PAD^» (Paddington (London) - next trains) (except one is still waiting to replaced after the old one expired (yes they have expiry dates on them.))

I actually think the reason FCC^▸ (First Capital Connect) don't train in First Aid is because of cost. Having spoken to some FCC staff that come through PAD, they are moaning that FCC is cutting down everything including training, one guy even said that he only got 1 hours training on how to use the ticket machine.
Oh how the grass isnt greener (or pinker) on the other side!!!!

[JayMac]

There have also been a lot of management changes at FCC^▸ (First Capital Connect) recently. Barbie (aka Elaine Holt) has poached a fair few of the better managers to join her at East Coast.