Fatalities at Iver - merged topic

[whole diary]

[dog box]

The poor old T/M cant win.....tell passengers its an operational incident they consider it a lame excuse...tell them the truth and still its not good enough.
Consider the fact that its 90% certain the Train Crew were not just starting work and had possibly been delayed on there inward journey.
They are entitled to a meal break away from the train,although in times of disruption its not uncommon for the T/M to for go his break and get the Train away on time. and have a short break whilst working.
Problem is that the Driver cannot do this, your either driving or having a break..train drivers are akin to lorry drivers after a certain amount of time in the chair they legally have to take a break.and this does not change if everything is disrupted, if anything should happen due to a driver not having a break he is almost certainly legally culpable in court

[Worcester_Passenger]

Problem is that the Driver cannot do this, your either driving or having a break..train drivers are akin to lorry drivers after a certain amount of time in the chair they legally have to take a break.and this does not change if everything is disrupted, if anything should happen due to a driver not having a break he is almost certainly legally culpable in court

As a matter of interest, what are the legal limits on driving time?

[paul7575]

HGV drivers were given blanket dispensation to exceed their normal hours (only by an extra one IIRC^▸ ('if I recall/remember/read correctly')) during the recent cold spell. 
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11917444
So presumably in principle rail drivers could also be given extra time if deemed necessary in the national interest, and with DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) approval ?

Paul

[SDS]

HGV drivers were given blanket dispensation to exceed their normal hours (only by an extra one IIRC^▸ ('if I recall/remember/read correctly')) during the recent cold spell. 
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11917444
So presumably in principle rail drivers could also be given extra time if deemed necessary in the national interest, and with DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) approval ?

Paul

Doubt that would happen for several reasons. EU^» (European Union - about) needs to get involved, ASLEF^» (Associated Society of Locomotive Engineers and Firemen - about), RMT^▸ (National Union of Rail, Maritime & Transport Workers) etc would start screaming safety case. The rulebook would need to be amended. Some drivers would just refuse (cos they can), TM^▸ (Train Manager, or possibly Ticket Machine, depending on context)'s might refuse to take a train if they know the drivers on his extra hour.

[coachflyer]

As a matter of interest, what are the legal limits on driving time?

The legal limits date back to the 1988 Clapham Rail Crash and are known as 'Hidden'

This basically gives a maximum time on duty of 12 hours with a minimum rest between duties of 12 hours.

Within this each company has agreements on the amount of time spent driving and the length of breaks but are based around the Working Time Agreement.

At LTV^▸ (London [and] Thames Valley) we have a daily maximum driving time of 8^ hours a day with max 5 hours continuous without any break or turnaround time of between 14 to 30 mins.
The length of the break depends on the time actually on duty and ranges from nothing for a turn under 7 hrs to 45 mins for a turn between 9 to 10 hours.

HSS^▸ (High Speed Services) and Wessex have a different set of agreements.

Southern have a daily max of 8 hours and their max non stop driving is only 3 hours.
Their brakes range from 20 mins for turns under 6 hours to between 30 to 40 mins for turns upto 9^ hours.

Most drivers will normally work the train to its destination in times of disruption before taking any break that they require unless they are approaching the 12 hour rule which is only exceeded in the most extreme cases and needs the authority of a senior manager.

[Tim]

I don't think that we should be moving to a situation where drivers are working longer hours (expect perhaps in very very exceptional circumstances like if a bomb went off in central London and the Government decided to evacuate the capital).  But perhaps at a major terminus it would be cost effective to have a more few "spare drivers" on standby in the peak.  Perhaps if FGW^▸ (First Great Western) were made financially responsible for all incidents (even those beyond the control of the railway) the financial incentive would be there for them to do more of that kind of thing. 

[Electric train]

The "Hidden Report" Anthony Hidden QC carried out the investigation into the Clapham rail crash 12 December 1988, there were a number of recommendations many of them to do with the way S & T renewals and maintenance was conducted and managed it went further as he had discovered, what every one in the industry knew at the time, that excessive hours were being worked by some safety critical staff, his report recommended that a max of 12 hours for a shift with at least 12 hour break with the employer taking into account traveling time to work also 13 days max then a rest day had to be taken, this was referred to "Hidden Hours".  His report was in part instrumental along with the Cannon Street incident at bout the same time where the drive was proved to be under the influence of cannabis to the Transport Works Act 1992 and the D & A testing of safety critical jobs

There is allowance within the current Rule Book and statues for hours to be exceeded which has to be authorised by a senior manager, I have guidance what to do for the guys that work for me should they need to exceed hours.

The break for the driver could be a PNB^▸ (Personal Needs Break) (Personal Needs Break) cabs do not have toilets those of you who work in an office just think what you would say if your boss said you can not go to the toilet!!!!! have a cup of tea ......

See the Hidden Report



Edit note: No pun intended, but I've amended your link, so that the 'Hidden Report' is no longer 'hidden' ...    Chris.

[bobm]

A bad start to the week. Fatality at Iver this morning. Not sure which service was involved but the 10:06 Paddington to Penzance was finally terminated at Exeter St David's nearly an hour and a half late. Think the set was then used to form the 12:55 Plymouth to Paddington which was cancelled between Plymouth and Exeter. Not sure what happened to the Pullman service or what effect it will have on the restaurant service on the 19:03 tonight which uses the same catering crew.   

The original set for the 12:55 was used to form an additional service to Penzance from Plymouth in the path of the original 10:06.

Disruption also meant services to Hereford, Great Malvern and Cheltenham Spa were also turned back short.

Just goes to show how an incident can affect people several hundred miles away several hours later - to say nothing, of course, for those immediately affected at the scene.

[Chris from Nailsea]

From the Maidenhead Advertiser:

UPDATE: Woman pronounced dead at scene after being hit by train

A woman was pronounced dead at the scene after being hit by a train close to Iver rail station today.

British Transport Police (BTP^▸ (British Transport Police)) and Thames Valley Police officers attended the scene at 10.18am.

A BTP spokesman said: "Paramedics from the South Central Ambulance Service also attended the scene but the woman, believed to be aged 40 and from Wivelsfield (East Sussex), was pronounced dead at the scene."

The train involved was the 9.31am Oxford to London Paddington service.

A file is being prepared for the coroner.

The line was handed back to Network Rail at 10.50am.

Delays have been reported on the line between Slough and Hayes and Harlington.