New Off Peak Ticket Restriction Oxford Reading Cross Country?

[whole diary]

[TerminalJunkie]

12. Restrictions on when you can travel Restrictions apply to the use of some tickets (including those bought with a Railcard) such as the dates, days, and times when you can use them, and the trains in which they can be used. These restrictions are set out in the notices and other publications of the Train Companies whose trains you are entitled to use.

Let me see if I have got this right. You are saying that you are not entitled to use Groupsave on Cross Country because Cross Country say so in their notices and other publications, and back this up by quoting NCoC 12, which refers only to the notices and other publications of a company whose trains you are entitled to use.

Has anyone got an Oozlum bird I could borrow? 

[JayMac]

I'll withdraw my concession. Well spotted TJ.

For Section 12 to apply the operators who do allow GroupSave need to produce notices and publications that say GroupSave is not valid on CrossCountry.

I'm yet to find any notices or publications from FGW^▸ (First Great Western) that say you cannot travel with CrossCountry.

So section 12 does cover FGW for the times when they withdraw GroupSave (sporting events, Galstonbury etc), but does not cover CrossCountry's blanket ban.

[paul7575]

The 'Groupsave leaflet' is the 'notice and publication' and you can pick it up at any station in the area.

It is an ATOC^» (Association of Train Operating Companies See - here) publication I think, like all the railcard leaflets, and clearly lists all the TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) it is available for.

The web version of the T&C is as follows, I expect the leaflet is similar:

Full terms and conditions are available at the station ticket office. Prices shown are available from 2 January 2010. GroupSave fares are based on all people travelling together at all times and cannot split from the group to travel separately. Failure to do so could result in a penalty fare. Participating Train Operators in London and the South East are: c2c, Chiltern Railways, First Capital Connect, First Great Western, London Midland, London Overground, National Express East Anglia (excludes Stansted Express), Southeastern, South West Trains and Southern. GroupSave 3 is available for combinations of 3 adults; 2 adults and 1 child; 1 adult and 2 children. GroupSave 4 is available for combinations of 4 adults; 2 adults and 2 children; 1 adult and 3 children; 3 adults and 1 child. GroupSave is valid on Off-Peak Day Returns for return on the same day, where available. GroupSave is valid on Off-Peak Day Travelcards for travel only from stations outside of the London area (not for purchase in the London Fares Zones 1-6). GroupSave is valid on Off-Peak Returns for return within one calendar month, where available. Travel on First Great Western may not be available on some busy peak days - please click here for further details. Travel time and date restrictions apply. Participating Train Operators in London and the South East offer a special ^1 flat fare for additional accompanying children. Prices shown may be subject to change so please check at your local station.

I suppose the pedantic view is that there should be two lists, one of valid TOCs, and one of the remainder.  IMHO^▸ (in my humble opinion) the rule is clear enough, but IANAL^▸ ('I am not a lawyer'.)...

Paul

[JayMac]

Section 12 says:

These restrictions are set out in the notices and other publications of the Train Companies whose trains you are entitled to use.

ATOC^» (Association of Train Operating Companies See - here) is not a Train Company.

[paul7575]

Section 12 says:

These restrictions are set out in the notices and other publications of the Train Companies whose trains you are entitled to use.

ATOC^» (Association of Train Operating Companies See - here) is not a Train Company.

So what - it is an umbrella grouping of train companies, so its leaflets are presumably written on behalf of all the listed train companies. It saves them all having to publicise the same information, that's all.

You'd really have to be nitpicking to say that it isn't a train company publication. The NR^» (Network Rail - home page) Cof C that you are quoting section 12 of are published by Rail Settlement Plan, part of ATOC.  Does that mean that section 12 isn't a train company publication either?

Paul

[JayMac]

Irrelevant whether NRCoC^▸ (National Rail Conditions of Carriage) is a Train Company publication.

It may well be nitpicking but the condition refers to Train Companies whose trains you are entitled to use. ATOC^» (Association of Train Operating Companies See - here) doesn't run any trains, it is not a Train Company so under Section 12 it's publications bear no relevance to the use of a GroupSave ticket on CrossCountry.

A simple solution would be to re-word Section 12 to include mention of trains you cannot use.

Those TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) that offer GroupSave need to make clear in their notices and publications that GroupSave is not valid with certain operators to comply with the NRCoC. This should then be backed up by a printed restriction on the ticket to comply with Section 10. ALso, correct entries are needed in the fares manual. Until such time as this happens or the wording of the NRCoC Section 12 changes I remain of the opinion that GroupSave is valid on CrossCountry.

Not forgetting that outside of the NRCoC there is legislation that protects the consumer when there is ambiguity in the contract terms for the supply of goods or services:

The Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1994

Specifically Provision 6:

Construction of written contracts

6.  A seller or supplier shall ensure that any written term of a contract is expressed in plain, intelligible language, and if there is doubt about the meaning of a written term, the interpretation most favourable to the consumer shall prevail.

[ChrisB]

Give it a try & we'll come & watch as you defend yourself....!

[JayMac]

Need two fellow travellers. Any takers? 

[johoare]

Well I am totally confused so I'm up for it