Coaches and buses bursting into flames - why are they apparently so combustible? (merged topic)

[whole diary]

[stuving]

From France24:

Dozens of electric buses will be taken off the streets of Paris temporarily "as a precaution" after two of the vehicles caught fire, public transport operator RATP said Friday.

Following a second blaze on Friday morning, in which no one was hurt, "RATP has taken the decision to suspend use of 149 electric buses" of manufacturer Bollore's Bluebus 5SE model, the state-owned company said.

The number 71 bus that caught fire in southeast Paris early Friday released thick clouds of black smoke and a strong smell of burning plastic, according to an AFP journalist on the scene.

"The bus driver immediately evacuated all the passengers. Nobody was hurt," RATP said, while the city fire service said the blaze was put out by around 30 firefighters.

A first bus caught fire on the upscale Boulevard Saint-Germain in central Paris on April 4, destroying the vehicle but again causing no injuries.

Bluebus is part of the sprawling empire of French billionaire Vincent Bollore, whose interests range from transport and logistics to media, generating around 24 billion euros ($25 billion) per year in revenue with 80,000 employees.

Bollore's 12-metre (39-foot) electric buses are a familiar sight on the streets of the French capital, emblazoned with the words "100 percent electric vehicle".

On its website, the company says the buses are "fitted with a new generation of batteries... with high energy density and optimal safety" spread around the roof and rear of the vehicle.

The video in this report from Le Parisien shows how the fire started, with explosions in the roof (where the batteries are). Quite spectacular!

[Bmblbzzz]

Spectacular!

Three in one month sounds odd. I wonder if there's been a change in maintenance regime?

Second link doesn't work, by the way.

[stuving]

Spectacular!

Three in one month sounds odd. I wonder if there's been a change in maintenance regime?

Second link doesn't work, by the way.

It's only the two this month - makes all the difference, doesn't it?

And that extra "link" was an error; it was parked there during checking but only half deleted.

[Bmblbzzz]

Now extinguished. Gas cylinders are mentioned, so presumably it was one of the gas-powered buses, though it's not clear whether that was in any way connected with the cause of the fire. No injuries reported.
https://www.bristol247.com/news-and-features/news/double-decker-bus-catches-fire-outside-bristol-temple-meads/

[stuving]

Bolloré, which made those Bluebuses, is back in the news - and it's fires again, but bigger!

One of the arguments against using hydrogen widely as a fuel is that it does burn and explode rather readily. You could make a similar argument against lithium-ion batteries: that lithium is highly reactive, burns spontaneously in air, and batteries do catch fire. And in any fire there is always the fear of toxic by-products - so is that an issue too? And especially in a really big fire, like a factory or energy store. 

Well, now someone has done a full-scale experiment to find out. Last night there as a spectacular fire in a big storage shed in Rouen, with 12,000 lithium batteries in it. The next-door unit also burned, and that was full of tyres, and a fire started in a third one. So far the word is that no dangerous air pollution has been measured - somewhat surprising just based on the tyres that burned (it's unclear how many of the 70,000 present did).

https://twitter.com/i/status/1615079748119728128

Exactly what "battery" implies here in terms of size in not clear.  At 6,000 square metres you could obviously stack 12,000 quite big ones in only part of the space, even if they are bus-sized. They were stored there by Bolloré Logistics, which obviously would not own them. But the Bolloré group does make batteries for transport and energy storage, and has made cars and probably still makes buses (Bluebus).

RATP uses a lot of Bluebuses in Paris, though that seems to be the only big customer. Last year they were recalled for modifications after those two caught fire in the street - said to be not an electrochemical issue, but still... They also supplied the Bluecar for the Paris car share/hire service Autolib, but that folded after problems of support and reliability and, of course, vandalism. Bolloré have said that they can't now compete with the big car makers, or with hire companies buying from them, after being into the field early.

The batteries Bolloré make they describe as "solid-state", unlike the usual kind, and they now make them mostly for stand-alone storage. Of course they may also have a load of old ones for their cars, or made for buses or other products, that needed storing. Supposedly they can be recycled, but that does not mean the capacity to do so exists yet.

[Bmblbzzz]

Now being investigated as arson, so the gas-power is exonerated.

A spokesperson for Avon & Somerset Police, said: “An investigation is underway after Avon Fire & Rescue Service confirmed that a fire on a 73 bus in Bristol was started deliberately.

“Fire crews tackled the blaze involving the First Bus vehicle on Temple Way soon after 10am on Tuesday 17 January.

“It’s now being investigated as arson with intent to endanger life.”

https://www.bristol247.com/news-and-features/news/bus-fire-outside-temple-mead-was-started-deliberately/

[infoman]

https://news.met.police.uk/news/appeal-to-identify-man-after-fire-onboard-bus-477299

Not to mention the local one recently

https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/news/bristol-news/stockwood-bus-arson-attack-cctv-8958116

[grahame]

Is it just me, or have there been a lot of bus fires recently?



I have seen much comment about the danger of fire in electic vehicles / buses but it strikes me that all of these shown are diesel.   Is the problem any compact energy source??

[ellendune]

Apparently although there is a lot of publicity about electric vehicle fires, the stats show that a conventional cars are more likely to catch fire.

[LiskeardRich]

According to a recent traffic commissioner publication there has only been 1 electric bus fire to date that was caused by the bus systems.. The rest have been arson.

Meanwhile there has been an average of 3 diesel buses a month destroyed by fire according to the RMT^▸ (National Union of Rail, Maritime & Transport Workers) over the last 2 years

[broadgage]

I blame the increase in reports of bus fires on the general availability of camera phones !
A simple text only report that "a bus caught fire at XYZ, there were no injuries" is not that interesting. If however a dramatic picture or even video is available then it is more newsworthy.

[grahame]

I blame the increase in reports of bus fires on the general availability of camera phones !
A simple text only report that "a bus caught fire at XYZ, there were no injuries" is not that interesting. If however a dramatic picture or even video is available then it is more newsworthy.

Indeed - in the olden days, before they sent round a reporter with a camera the bus was just a shell.

But the point I was making with the montages is that I have read so much of "electric [cars/buses] are. dangerous because of all that energy in a compact space" that I wanted to point out "anything with loads of stored energy is dangerous" and - and thanks for the confirmation - there are so many diesel bus fires.  Look at the stats and it probably turns out that electric buses for every million miles travelled burn less!

[TonyK]

Indeed - in the olden days, before they sent round a reporter with a camera the bus was just a shell.

But the point I was making with the montages is that I have read so much of "electric [cars/buses] are. dangerous because of all that energy in a compact space" that I wanted to point out "anything with loads of stored energy is dangerous" and - and thanks for the confirmation - there are so many diesel bus fires.  Look at the stats and it probably turns out that electric buses for every million miles travelled burn less!

Absolutely correct. Diesel isn't particularly easy to set light to, but once a fire takes hold, it burns extremely well and isn't easy to extinguish. Buses are easy prey for the local arsonist, as a fire can be lit on the top deck, and the offender may well have disembarked before it is noticed. The body work and furniture seem to burn quite well too, strange in a modern era where home furnishings have to survive rigorous ignition tests. Rural buses also suffer from the lack of a secure home at night, and sometimes because someone objects strongly to having half a dozen 20-year-old buses parked down the road when not in use. Electric buses are almost all very new at present, and because of the need for charging tend to have a secure depot with the necessary equipment.

There's a point I hadn't spotted previously. There were three fires involving electric buses in the TfL^» (Transport for London - about) area in January 2024. Reading the reports, it looks as though two of them were caused by electrical faults unconnected to the battery propulsion system. So if an air conditioning unit, wiper motor, heater or any component common to electric and diesel vehicles causes a fire in an electric bus, it will show as "yet another fire involving a battery vehicle" when in truth, it could have happened in any type and did not cause fire in the battery. I must watch out for a closer analysis.

Electric scooters and bikes get a bad press too, and fires involving them have led to loss of life. So far, though, I haven't read a report of such an incident involving what you might term a street-legal vehicle purchased from a reputable manufacturer, and used in accordance with the instructions. All the incidents I have seen so far, and I accept readily that there may be others, involve at least one part of the setup being other than the official part. A replacement battery or charger may look expensive from the manufacturer in comparison with something available from Temu, eBay, Facebook Marketplace, or any one of the many outlets for non-standard kit, but these come with no certification of safety. It's worth mentioning that the only eScooters that can be ridden on the roads are those in licensed hire schemes, yet the streets seem not to be short of others. I doubt very much that there are any knock-off electric buses on British streets as yet, but they are tarnished by association.

[infoman]

Could the age of the bus's, and the maintenance be a factor as well?

[TonyK]

Could the age of the bus's, and the maintenance be a factor as well?

Maintenance is certainly a factor. Given the condition of the many elderly buses around Taunton recently, I should say more so than age, just as with aircraft. The two that I learned to fly in are still very much in use, despite being over 50 years old, something that is definitely down to the rigorous maintenance regime. Commercial vehicles all have set routines for keeping fit which should ensure a useful life beyond that of a private car. Many are replaced for reasons of costs of running, brand awareness leading to new buses on prime routes and a cascade of the older stock to my area, or introduction of new regulations, and it won't be long before diesel buses are no longer produced for the UK^▸ (United Kingdom) market.

A look under the bonnet of a classic bus reveals very little, with therefore little opportunity for things to go badly wrong if looked after. Newer buses are more complex, which can add a certain degree of risk, but I think that by and large, that is reduced to a very low level by the quality of engineering. Any fault that makes a type or model of bus liable to spontaneous combustion would be disastrous for the manufacturer and operator alike. A new battery powered double deck bus can cost in the region of £500,000, and insurers will be keen to avoid paying for too many write-offs.