Search for cut-price InterCity 125 upgrade (Financial Times 30/08/2010)

[whole diary]

[JayMac]

An interesting article in the Financial times about the options for replacing the locomotives for the HST^▸ (High Speed Train) Fleet. For copyright reasons I can only provide a link to the article, and you do need to register (free) to view it on FT.com. 

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/0282e9d4-b396-11df-81aa-00144feabdc0.html

[anthony215]

Easy thing to do would be to install powered doors on the Mk3 carriages like those in ireland which Chiltern are looking at buying.

As for  the locomotives why not look at the chinese polaris  locomotives which if ordered the chinese have offered to open a factory in the uk which could be good as the new stock for crossrail could also be built.

Finally why not get bombardier to build some class 222 Bi-mode meridans for the London - Hereford/Cheltenham Spa services?

Finally if there is money spare from the crossrail project why not use it to electrify the great western?  I did read in a magazine that it would only cost ^250 million to electrify to Oxford/Exeter & Swansea

[paul7575]

Easy thing to do would be to install powered doors on the Mk3 carriages like those in ireland which Chiltern are looking at buying.

I've always believed it would involve fairly major alterations, comparison of a 442 vestibule and a Mk 3 certainly suggests so. Although there may be other methods of achieving the same end result...

Paul

[anthony215]

I know chiltern  have said that the mk3  do not need much work done to upgrade them

[Tim]

Easy thing to do would be to install powered doors on the Mk3 carriages like those in ireland which Chiltern are looking at buying.

Or just change the law to make the existing doors legal for another 25 years!

[inspector_blakey]

Easy thing to do would be to install powered doors on the Mk3 carriages like those in ireland which Chiltern are looking at buying.

I know chiltern  have said that the mk3  do not need much work done to upgrade them

Any chance you could give us a citation for those particular comments, or are they just internet/messroom rumour at the moment?

[Electric train]

Easy thing to do would be to install powered doors on the Mk3 carriages like those in ireland which Chiltern are looking at buying.

Not sure FGW^▸ (First Great Western) could afford to have a complete rake of Mk3's out of service for the months it would take to carry out the work, the set would be hampered until another set entered service because it would be unlikely you could run a mix of slam door and powered so swapping defective coaches out would cause the whole set to be OOS.  I am not convinced retro fitting powered external doors to coaches that are 25 to 30 years old would be best value for money.

Finally if there is money spare from the crossrail project why not use it to electrify the great western?  I did read in a magazine that it would only cost ^250 million to electrify to Oxford/Exeter & Swansea

If it were that cheap the current scheme would not be in limbo, a single National Grid supply point can cost ^50M plus

[onthecushions]

I would vote for near-anything that would run on 25kV overhead.

Ideally, our GW^▸ (Great Western) main line should be upgraded to LGV^▸ (Large Goods Vehicle) standards - relatively easy as alignment and clearances are mostly OK. This would mean TGV^▸ (Train a Grande Vitesse) or ICE stock for 300+kph. Lower speed - 225kph (probably similar cost) would suit off the peg Javelins.

Returning from planet Zog, if we get wires, it may be on condition of re-stretching the Mk 3 fleet for the 4th time, for existing top speeds. This could be with re-engineered class 90's (3 phase inverter drive + re-gearing) with DVT^‡(resolve)'s, West Coast style, or class 442 type, "Wessex" emu's. The motor car design exists as do variants of driving ends. The 442's were in fact rebuilds in the power area from the 438/492 Bournemouth (rebuilt!) stock they succeeded. Emu's have a lot in their favour.

There are quite a lot of Mk 3 bodies in the British Isles at the moment, so conversion might be a runner.
 
Fingers crossed for the October announcement.

OTC

[Btline]

The reason plug doors should be fitted to Mk3s is to reduce dwell times. I really don't think the safety angle should be taken too seriously. How millions of people travel in them every year and don't jump out the window, etc!!

[willc]

If you want to reduce dwell times, then you want 1/3 and 2/3 doors in the coaches. 180s have plug doors and dwell times when FGW^▸ (First Great Western) was using them were no different to HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train) because people leaving and boarding have to get along the aisles to and from the end of the coaches - that's what takes the time. Not whether the doors are powered.

[anthony215]

If you want to reduce dwell times, then you want 1/3 and 2/3 doors in the coaches. 180s have plug doors and dwell times when FGW^▸ (First Great Western) was using them were no different to HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train) because people leaving and boarding have to get along the aisles to and from the end of the coaches - that's what takes the time. Not whether the doors are powered.

Good point but what about the time taken for staff to run up and down the length of the train to shut the doors only to have another passenger suddenly get on then not closing the doors after them.

[willc]

But such people are only likely to be boarding at specific points, near barriers, footbridges etc, which are predictable, so staff are usually on hand at such places at major stations. Would help at short unstaffed platforms but people's movements up and down the coaches are far more time-consuming. Just observe peak HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train) at the likes of Reading, Didcot, Oxford and Swindon if you don't believe me.

While discussing possible options for alternatives to IEP^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project.) in this month's Modern Railways, Roger Ford specifically mentions this issue and suggests a candidate to replace many current FGW^▸ (First Great Western) HSTs is a souped-up electric multiple unit more suitable for the services now operating on the GWML^▸ (Great Western Main Line)

[IndustryInsider]

I agree totally with Willc's point at the larger and busier stations, but HST^▸ (High Speed Train)'s are a problem at unstaffed, quieter stations - Kingham, Malvern and so on - as even if the TM^‡(resolve)'s pretty sure nobody has got off they still need to make sure that all doors are shut which can involve quite a walk (anything on the first catch facing away from you is very difficult to see unless you're up close) and thus takes up precious time.  Compare the dwell times on a trip from Oxford to Malvern with those of an Adelante with it's similar door locations and you can see why so many minutes have been added to the schedules since those days.

[paul7575]

The reason plug doors should be fitted to Mk3s is to reduce dwell times. I really don't think the safety angle should be taken too seriously. How millions of people travel in them every year and don't jump out the window, etc!!

It doesn't reduce dwell times significantly. The time taken to get through the train is the limiting factor, this is why the 442s are not able to keep time on the Brighton - Gatwick - Victoria route compared to 1/3 2/3 doors on all the other EMUs^▸ (Electric Multiple Unit) on the route.

Paul

[Btline]

I agree totally with Willc's point at the larger and busier stations, but HST^▸ (High Speed Train)'s are a problem at unstaffed, quieter stations - Kingham, Malvern and so on - as even if the TM^‡(resolve)'s pretty sure nobody has got off they still need to make sure that all doors are shut which can involve quite a walk (anything on the first catch facing away from you is very difficult to see unless you're up close) and thus takes up precious time.  Compare the dwell times on a trip from Oxford to Malvern with those of an Adelante with it's similar door locations and you can see why so many minutes have been added to the schedules since those days.

Precisely, the main reason 180 dwells were longer than necessary was because the doors were faulty. With a fault free 180, a despatch from WOF could be done in 3 minutes. With the HSTs, it's 4 if you're lucky, more likely 5. Why? Because on a 180, you needed a despatcher to stand in one place on the platform with the guard in the penultimate coach, they can see all doors and the guard closes them; on an HST, the guard and depatcher have to walk up and down opening (for the people unable to read) and closing (for the people who haven't twigged the doors won't close by themselves) doors. The guard is also positioned badly at the back of the train due to the SDO^▸ (Selective Door Opening) = poorer view = more walking. With the curves, a door on the catch is difficult to see. You also have the stupid situation where a pair of doors at the busiest part of the platform are platformed, but are not opened due to FGW^▸ (First Great Western) getting the SDO wrong. The result is people try both doors - neither work = delay as they move down a carriage + delay as guard/ despatcher runs over to the doors, kicks them shut and walks back.

The whole procedure is a horrendous mess and an embarrassment to observe. Even at Shrub Hill, which is dead straight, long enough and not that busy, a dwell of less than 3 minutes is rare. Plug doors could see 5 - 10 mins taken out of the timetable straight away.