Watch out if using Best Fare feature on NRE website

[whole diary]

[JayMac]

Nibat, I'll say it again. Changing an Advance to split walk-up tickets is allowed under the terms of of the T&Cs of Advance Purchase and the NRCoC^▸ (National Rail Conditions of Carriage).

Suppose you held Advance tickets for a journey between Bristol to Derby, splitting the journey at Birmingham, and then you change them for Advance tickets from Bristol to Derby, splitting the journey at Cheltenham. How would the origin and destinations shown on the tickets remain the same?

Ah... now that's split advances. A whole different ball game/kettle of fish/minefield! I'm arguing my corner on changing an advance to walk-up splits. However, still one journey as defined in the NRCoC, which doesn't exclude Advances from para. 19 "Using a combination of tickets".

It does clearly say origin and destination shown on the ticket has to remain the same. I'm not sure what part of that you aren't getting.

Well it actually says 'ticket(s)' and it doesn't specify whether this refers to the ticket(s) you are giving up or the ticket(s) you are receiving. With the split(s) you are getting one ticket with your origin and another with your destination. The split destination(s)/origin(s) are irrelevant. Your entire journey's origin and destination remain the same.

[Ollie]

The split destination(s)/origin(s) are irrelevant. Your entire journey's origin and destination remain the same.

But it doesn't if you change to split tickets.

Yes on one ticket the origin will be same, and on the other the destination will, but that's it.

[JayMac]

OK, I kinda see where you are coming from but I don't agree. I've given my interpretation of the T&Cs and NRCoC^▸ (National Rail Conditions of Carriage) and they concur with those more expert in the interpretation of fares rules on other forums. There is, admittedly, a lot of hypothesis at work as there have been no legal challenges to the various ambiguities in our crackpot fares system.

Until there is, passengers have to rely on goodwill, TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) staff can continue to make rules up, Passenger Focus won't grow a set of b***s and ATOC^» (Association of Train Operating Companies See - here) can continue to bury their heads up their ....... er, in the sand.

[Ollie]

but I don't agree

Yeah, didn't think you would

[bigdaz]

And I thought I was getting hot under the collar this morning!!  I didn't mean to set off fireworks!

Following the majority of the comments on this thread, I have emailed a formal complaint to XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) and have requested that, in light of the mis-information that I received this morning (in my personal view and that of others), that the ^10 administration fee should be waived. 

I've yet to receive a reply and will post it as soon as it comes!

Thank you all for your contributions to my debate!

Darren.

[JayMac]

but I don't agree

Yeah, didn't think you would

Well, what kind of world would it be if we all agreed? 

[Chris from Nailsea]

Hmm.  A deep breath for me, before I venture into these dangerous waters - but here goes: 

I can see Ollie's point, actually: the NRCoC^▸ (National Rail Conditions of Carriage) do state that the origin and destination on the "ticket(s)" must be the same.

So, for example, you could change the date of travel on a your journey involving split tickets from A to D, splitting at C, as each ticket you gave up would be replaced by a new ticket - just with a different date.

However, if you tried to change your journey to a new date, but now splitting at B instead, it wouldn't work: each individual ticket you gave up wouldn't have the same origin and destination as the replacements.

Now, before anyone goes off on one: surely the use of the '(s)' after the word ticket, in the NRCoC, is designed to cover just this eventuality, of someone wanting to change their travel arrangements: yes, you can change the date of travel (subject to the ^10 fee, obviously), but your overall journey - start point, any intermediate split point(s) and ultimate destination, as set out on each of your original ticket(s) - must remain the same.

C. 

[JayMac]

I can see Ollie's point, actually: the NRCoC^▸ (National Rail Conditions of Carriage) do state that the origin and destination on the "ticket(s)" must be the same.

It's actually in the T&Cs that are supplied with Advance Purchase tickets, not the NRCoC. It's the NRCoC that gives passengers the right to use split tickets.

I can change a walk-up fare to split walk-ups if I so desire, subject to the ^10 admin fee and nowhere does it say that I cannot do the same with an Advance.

The most likely, possibly legitimate reason for being refused the split would be failure to satisfy "Train Company or route shown on the ticket(s) must remain the same". But that doesn't make it impossible (improbable, but not impossible) to change an Advance to walk-up splits. There are plenty of route and TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) specific walk-up tickets out there.

EDIT: Having said that, it appears that if you change an Advance to a single walk-up ticket this condition is rarely enforced. It certainly wasn't in the OPs^▸ (Original Poster / topic starter) case - he was offered an Anytime Single which would've been Route: Oxford. The Advance he was giving up would've been; Route: XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) & Connections.

 An Advance from Bristol to Paddington will say; Route: Great Western Only or Route: AP Slough, but the walk-up ticket you will get in exchange will say; Route: Any Permitted.

Clear as mud, these T&Cs and restrictions ain't they?

[Nibat]

It is really complicated to understand and enforce, really...  You could understand every single word in the conditions in a different way 

Now, in the case of changing advance tickets, when it says ticket(s) I personally think it means that you could have more than one ticket to change, say two adults and one child for example.  The admin fee with ADV applies to each ticket (in this case would be ^30 + the difference in the fare); the same group of people holding SVR would pay only ^10 fee, regardless of the number of tickets to change...

I think I could make it easier to understand by just explaining the process used to change the ticket:
- If you hold ADV everything is done excessing the ticket: check the fare available on the new date, book it adding the admin fee, and then excess it to show the difference in price if a new ADV has been issued or the difference in price and the new ticket if an open ticket has been issued.  It requires same origin and destination as the excess coupon should match the original ticket.  The route + origin + destination must be the same whe you go from ADV to ADV, the route doesn't matter if you go to open.  The class of travel again could be different when you change it, sometimes downgrading from 1st to STD as it would be the cheapest option when ADV to open.
- In the case of, for example an Off Peak ticket, the last circular we had from FGW^▸ (First Great Western) stated that to change the date on the ticket the process should be to do a refund and then issue the new ticket.  So basically the split would be ok as you effectively purchase a new ticket...

Again, I could be completely mistaken, but that's the way I see it.  And unless somebody from 'Swindon', ATOC^» (Association of Train Operating Companies See - here),... tells me otherwise, I would continue to understand that in the case of ADV tickets the origin and destination written on the ticket(s) must be the same.  Even when the final journey is the same.

Apologies if my explanation is a bit muddy, is easier to say than to write... 

[JayMac]

And unless somebody from 'Swindon', ATOC^» (Association of Train Operating Companies See - here),... tells me otherwise,

Well, I wait with bated breath for a reply from ATOC to my email.

[Ollie]

When advance tickets are sold in say a ticket office, the conditions slip usually gets given out. And it's not one per ticket, that's just wasteful. So ticket(s) would cover the eventuality of the customer being given more than one advance ticket.

[bigdaz]

Here is a copy of the email I sent to XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) customer services:

Dear Sirs
 
I am writing to request you investigate some information which I was given this morning which I believe was wholly incorrect.
 
I had inadvertently booked a return from Birmingham to Farnborough on the wrong day on an advanced ticket.  Now I fully recognise this was MY fault as the date should have been 4th August.
 
However, I was told that for the same journey on Wednesday the only ticket which I could be issued was an ODS of ^43.00.  I said if that were the case, then instead I would amend my ADV ticket  for a split ticket of CDS^▸ (Off Peak Day Single [ticket type] (formerly 'Cheap Day')) Birmingham to Banbury and a CDS with network card Banbury to Farnborough.  I was categorically told this could not be done.
 
So I have researched the rules firstly on the amendment of ADV tickets, and the National Rail Enquires website states as follows:
 
Changing the time or date of travel

    *Changes to time or date of travel must be arranged before departure of the first reserved train printed on the ticket, after which the ticket has no value and a new one must be purchased. You will need to present the ticket(s) and reservation(s) when you request a change.
   
    *Changes to tickets cannot be made on-board the train. If you board a train without a ticket and reservation for that service, a new ticket must be purchased. Depending on the Train Company you are travelling with, you may be liable to a Penalty Fare if you board the train with an invalid ticket.
   
    *The origin, destination and Train Company or route shown on the ticket(s) must remain the same.
   
    *The difference between the price paid and cost of the next suitable fare for your journey is payable, plus a ^10 administration fee per person, per single ticket for each change to a journey. If you change to a train on which a cheaper fare is available, the difference will not be refunded.
 
So, in accordance with this advice, I was NOT changing the ORIGIN, nor the DESTINATION nor TRAIN COMPANY.
 
I then researched further on the National Rail Conditions of Carriage which clearly state:
 
19. Using a combination of tickets
You may use two or more tickets for one journey as long as together they cover the entire
journey and one of the following applies:
(a) they are both Zonal Tickets (unless special conditions prohibit their use);
(b) the train you are in calls at a station where you change from one
ticket to another; or
(c) one of the tickets is a Season Ticket (which for this purpose does not include
Season Tickets or travel passes issued on behalf of a passenger transport
executive or local authority) or a leisure travel pass, and the other ticket(s) is/are not.
 
Once again my proposal of a split ticket from Birmingham via Banbury fulfils the criteria in 19 (b).
 
I therefore conclude that I was mis-informed.
 
I have subsequently booked on the 1833 ex New Street (as this was the next train with the cheaper advanced ticket price) however, I would have preferred the 1733 with the split ticketing.
 
In light of the inconvenience caused, and mis-information given to me during the first telephone conversation (which you say you have recorded so can be listened to, it was at 8.03am this morning) I believe you should waiver the ^10 administration cost for changing the ticket.
 
I look forward to hearing from you shortly.
 
Kind regards

And here is the non-committal response from XC received this morning, implying they agree with my points although not stating it so!

Dear Mr ***** 
   
Thank you for getting in touch.

I am sorry to hear of the problems you have been having.

In light of the circumstances I would be happy to reimburse you for the admin fee, Please can you let me know your booking reference number and I will ensure that in some way we get the ^10 refunded to you.
 
Thank you once again for taking the time to get in touch. 
 
Richard Campbell 
Customer Relations Consultant
CrossCountry

[Tim]

IMHO^▸ (in my humble opinion), the TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) are acting illegally again.  But they will not stop until someone sues them and that will not happend because if you complain and start quoting the NCOC, I bet you will get refund to make you shut up and go away.

As predicted.  Well done.

[Nibat]

To be honest, I wouldn't assume that you are right from that answer.  For me only says "we'll give you the money back and that way we'll keep you quiet"...  The admin fee is in a way just an extra payment they've taken, they're keeping the money from the tickets!!

And in my opinion, the admin fee would be the only money they shouldn't refund you even if you were right!!!

Anyway, we are as we were when this post started...   

[bigdaz]

 

Rail voucher for the value of ^10 arrive this morning, as they were "unable to process a refund of the admin fee