Watch out if using Best Fare feature on NRE website

[whole diary]

[bigdaz]

I am the victim of my own incompetence...and I am so SEETHING!

I decided I would go from FNB to BHM on a circuitous tour on Wednesday - travelling across London and with VT^▸ (Virgin Trains - former franchises) on the way there and back via Reading and XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)).

However, I so angry as I have discovered that when you start a basic search in the best fares section of NRE^‡(resolve) website and you enter a date, it CHANGES the date back to its default when you do an advanced search as I did to insist it looks at the fares via reading only!

I booked a lovely cross London outbound trip for ^12.50 including across London transfers leaving 9.30am which I thought was a bargain.

I then thought my return was almost as good: a ^21.50 return.  However, at 10.30pm last night when I looked at the print outs, I noticed it was for TODAY. 

I waited until 8am this morning, and telephone cross country to ask if I may change my ticket.  Of course, they said, subject to a ^10 administration fee....at the end of the day I knew I would have to pay this, so said yes fine it was my fault!

However, the cheapest ticket they could offer me was an ODS at ^43.00.  I said no thank you, I would prefer to buy a CDS^▸ (Off Peak Day Single [ticket type] (formerly 'Cheap Day')) BHM - BAN and a CDS with network card BAN - Farnborough Stns.  I kept being told repeatedly this was not possible as I was changing the destination of my ticket.  I pointed out that I was NOT changing the destination, merely splitting my ticket.  Well, apparently, according to the T&Cs this is also NOT allowed!

So in the end I have left it!  So, probably a bit late now, if anyone from Farnborough  / Reading is on here and happens to be travelling to BHM today I can provide you with a ticket back home at 17.33 for nothing!

[bigdaz]

However, the cheapest ticket they could offer me was an ODS at ^43.00

Interesting... a further look on the website showed an identical ticket (Adv @ ^21.50) available on the 1833 off BHM.  So I telephoned again, this time routing the call via the call centre, where I got a really helpful lady who processed the alteration (subject to ^10 admin which was expected) so at least I can now come home again at an overall cost of ^31.50 instead of what may have been in excess of ^48!!

This issue regarding the default date still remains a caution!

[JayMac]

Tis annoying when things like that hsppen.

There is however nothing in the T&Cs that says you cannot change an ADV to a split ticket. Beinng told repeatedly this isn't allowed doesn't make it true.

The National Rail Conditions of Carriage (NRCoC^▸ (National Rail Conditions of Carriage)) state that you can buy multiple tickets to make one journey.

19. Using a combination of tickets
You may use two or more tickets for one journey as long as together they cover the entire
journey and one of the following applies:
(a) they are both Zonal Tickets (unless special conditions prohibit their use);
(b) the train you are in calls at a station where you change from one
ticket to another; or
(c) one of the tickets is a Season Ticket (which for this purpose does not include
Season Tickets or travel passes issued on behalf of a passenger transport
executive or local authority) or a leisure travel pass, and the other ticket(s) is/are not.

My emphasis in bold.

There is nothing in the T&Cs for advance tickets that says you cannot replace your ADV with split tickets. National Rail Enquiries says

Changing the time or date of travel

    *Changes to time or date of travel must be arranged before departure of the first reserved train printed on the ticket, after which the ticket has no value and a new one must be purchased. You will need to present the ticket(s) and reservation(s) when you request a change.
   
    *Changes to tickets cannot be made on-board the train. If you board a train without a ticket and reservation for that service, a new ticket must be purchased. Depending on the Train Company you are travelling with, you may be liable to a Penalty Fare if you board the train with an invalid ticket.
   
    *The origin, destination and Train Company or route shown on the ticket(s) must remain the same.
   
    *The difference between the price paid and cost of the next suitable fare for your journey is payable, plus a ^10 administration fee per person, per single ticket for each change to a journey. If you change to a train on which a cheaper fare is available, the difference will not be refunded.

Again, my emphasis. The T&Cs even make reference to the possibility of more than one ticket. If the next suitable fare happens to be a split ticket requested by the customer (which TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) are obliged to sell), then they should sell it to you.

I suggest you email a complaint to CrossCountry Customer Services pointing out the duff information you were given.

Finally, I should point out that is against the NRCoC to offer a ticket to another person.

6. You may not transfer a ticket to another person
A ticket may only be used by the person for whom it has been bought. It may not be
resold or passed on to anyone else unless this is specifically allowed by the terms and
conditions which apply to that ticket and which are set out in the notices and publications
of the relevant Train Company.

It's probably not acceptable to do so on this forum either.

[grahame]

Many, many of us have been caught with mis-purchased tickets;  I can recall pressing the wrong button on a machine and not noticing, then having a **** of a problem changing.   While the system remains so complex, I can't see any way of preventing it totally, but I';m sure some of the grosser problems can - or in some cases have - been dealt with.

Picking up bignosemac's question about giving away (or resale) or tickets on here.  We did have such a thing come up way back in the past where one of our members was looking to sell a ticket for the best bid he could get, and we had to say "you can't do that". We would also have to be very worried if we were used as a site through which people offloaded the second half of a return ticket.

The question of buying a ticket and passing on the whole thing is an interesting one.  We all do it ... "two returns to Sandplace please" ... but reading it carefully that's within the rules.  It looks to me as if it's valid if you know who you were going to pass in on to when you bought it, but not if you didn't.  So if I've bought tickets for myself and a colleague, but my colleague has to drop out for personal reasons and another colleague stands in, in theory I have to trade in one of the tickets and purchase a second identical one.  There are times that the rules lead to some mighty daft situations, and in practise you'll probably find they'll be overlooked in such a scenario.

[ChrisB]

I would also draw this false info problem to Passdenger Focus' attention....they'll be nore than interested in raising it with the TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) in question.

[readytostart]

I think part of the issue here is that by splitting a ticket you are in fact purchasing two journeys, albeit on the same train. Instead of changing the time / date / ticket type, which can be done with the administration fee and payment of the difference in fares, you are in fact going to need a refund for the original ticket (not available on advance) and then to purchase new ones.

Might be worth appealing to the website's better nature to see if they'd consider a goodwill refund.

[JayMac]

You are not purchasing two journeys. You are purchasing two tickets to complete one journey. And the NRCoC^▸ (National Rail Conditions of Carriage) cover this and allow it. So you should be able to change an ADV to walk-up split tickets as long as origin and final destination remain the same.

[Tim]

I think part of the issue here is that by splitting a ticket you are in fact purchasing two journeys, albeit on the same train.

Not sure I agree, As Bignosemac states the NCOC state (rule 19) "you may use two or more tickets for one journey ......"  I assumed that that rule was so that the guard had legal basis for requiring that you show all tickets on request when travelling on a combination of tickets (rather than just the ticket for the leg you are currently on).  

The TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) cannot have it both ways.

[Ollie]

Advance tickets are clear, orgin and destination has to remain the same.

ticket(s) would be where more than one ticket exists. E.g. a return trip.

[JayMac]

Ok Ollie. But where does it say in the ADV ticket T&Cs or NRCoC^▸ (National Rail Conditions of Carriage) that you may not change to split walk-ups if you decide to change your departure time? NRCoC says:

The Train Companies may not give you less extensive
rights, except in the case of some types of reduced and discounted fare tickets where
the relevant condition(s) specifically allow them to do so. These Conditions set out the
minimum level of rights you are entitled to expect.

Nothing in those 'relevant conditions' in NRCoC that precludes changing an ADV to split walk ups. And nothing in the ADV T&Cs as published by all TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) that preclude it either. Therefore it's allowed. You are completing one journey and your destination is not your split point, therefore the origin and destination condition is satisfied.

Oh, I'm not a lawyer, but it seems pretty clear to me 

If there's a T&C out there that does preclude it, I haven't found it.

[Tim]

IMHO^▸ (in my humble opinion), the TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) are acting illegally again.  But they will not stop until someone sues them and that will not happend because if you complain and start quoting the NCOC, I bet you will get refund to make you shut up and go away.

This is the sort of thing Passenger Focus should be dealing with, but I PF^▸ (Penalty Fare) has never particularly impressed me (they let though the appaling fares simplification which suggest to me that not many people in the organisation are what you would call experts).

[Nibat]

From the NRE^‡(resolve) website, regarding terms and conditions of advance tickets (should be the same information shown on condition cards usually issued with the tickets):

Changing the time or date of travel

* Changes to time or date of travel must be arranged before departure of the first reserved train printed on the ticket, after which the ticket has no value and a new one must be purchased. You will need to present the ticket(s) and reservation(s) when you request a change.
* Changes to tickets cannot be made on-board the train. If you board a train without a ticket and reservation for that service, a new ticket must be purchased. Depending on the Train Company you are travelling with, you may be liable to a Penalty Fare if you board the train with an invalid ticket.

From my point of view, and I stand to be corrected, what you were told on the phone was right as you will otherwise be change one ticket to two completely different tickets, and that way breaching the conditions of Advance tickets.
* The origin, destination and Train Company or route shown on the ticket(s) must remain the same.
* The difference between the price paid and cost of the next suitable fare for your journey is payable, plus a ^10 administration fee per person, per single ticket for each change to a journey. If you change to a train on which a cheaper fare is available, the difference will not be refunded.

I think it's very clear, the way I undestand it this condition are clear before you buy the tickets and you accept them when you decide to pay for them.  There is nothing here you don't know (or at least that you cannot find out) before the transaction takes place, you even tick (or at least I think you do) the box stating you understand the T&C's concerned.

[JayMac]

(Deep breath....count to 10)

Nibat, I'll say it again. Changing an Advance to split walk-up tickets is allowed under the terms of of the T&Cs of Advance Purchase and the NRCoC^▸ (National Rail Conditions of Carriage).

You are making one journey with split tickets, not two, or three, or seventy-six. You do not have to disembark at your split points and catch another train. Your split point(s) are not your destination. As long as you satisfy, "The origin, destination and Train Company or route shown on the ticket(s) must remain the same," pay the ^10 Administration fee and catch a service that calls at your split point(s) then the TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) should not refuse to sell you the split ticket.

If they (or anyone else) is going to tell you it's not allowed, then they need to provide you with details of a relevant term or condition. Otherwise the current NRCoC prevail.

(....and relax)

[TerminalJunkie]

Nibat, I'll say it again. Changing an Advance to split walk-up tickets is allowed under the terms of of the T&Cs of Advance Purchase and the NRCoC^▸ (National Rail Conditions of Carriage).

Suppose you held Advance tickets for a journey between Bristol to Derby, splitting the journey at Birmingham, and then you change them for Advance tickets from Bristol to Derby, splitting the journey at Cheltenham. How would the origin and destinations shown on the tickets remain the same?

[Ollie]

It does clearly say origin and destination shown on the ticket has to remain the same. I'm not sure what part of that you aren't getting.