Rail passengers 'shun confusing ticket machines' (BBC News 20/07/2010)

[whole diary]

[JayMac]

From the BBC^» (British Broadcasting Corporation - home page):

Rail firms are being asked to simplify ticket machines after a study said passengers were being "defeated" by the "bewildering jargon" they faced.

Customer watchdog Passenger Focus said some travellers preferred to queue to speak to ticket office staff, despite ticket machines standing empty. It said this meant waiting times at ticket offices often exceeded the five-minute guideline in peak hours.

The train firms said most people were happy to use ticket machines.

'Incomplete information'

Passenger Focus chief executive Anthony Smith said ticket machines were particularly daunting for passengers catching a train for the first time, or those "buying a different type of ticket from their normal ones."

"This stress adds unnecessary pressure to buying a ticket," he added. However, many passengers who buy a particular ticket often, or use a familiar ticket machine, may have less trouble."

Of the railway stations involved in the study it found that queues at ticket offices were worst in Guildford in Surrey, and Winchester and Basingstoke in Hampshire. At these stations, a third of queues were longer than the industry standard.

"Ticket machines can present bewildering jargon, a barrage of information and choices, as well as incomplete information about ticket restrictions," added Mr Smith.

'Unrepresentative picture'

A spokesman for the Association of Train Operating Companies pointed out that Passenger Focus's own figures showed last month that - from a survey of more than 30,000 rail users - seven out of 10 were satisfied with ticket-buying facilities at stations.

"This suggests that most people use ticket machines with no problem whatsoever," he added. "They are there to cut queue times and make the process easier and faster for passengers."

He added that Passenger Focus's latest research looked at queuing times at fewer than 1% of railway stations across Britain.

"This gives a selective and unrepresentative picture of how long people have to queue at stations," said the spokesman. "Train companies are in the business of keeping their customers happy. They invest a huge amount of time and effort in improving the choice that people have at stations when it comes to buying tickets."

Passenger Focus said it was now working with the train companies "to radically simplify what should be the straightforward process of getting a ticket [from a machine]".

"Most important is clear information about when off-peak and super off-peak tickets are valid," added Mr Smith.

[grahame]

From the BBC^» (British Broadcasting Corporation - home page):

A spokesman for the Association of Train Operating Companies pointed out that Passenger Focus's own figures showed last month that - from a survey of more than 30,000 rail users - seven out of 10 were satisfied with ticket-buying facilities at stations.

"This suggests that most people use ticket machines with no problem whatsoever," he added. "They are there to cut queue times and make the process easier and faster for passengers."

So 21,000 people said they were "satisfied" (not that facilities were "good" or "excellent", I note) and 9,000 were (it is implied) not satisfied.

If there was an aspect of our business about which 9 customers were unhappy for every 21 who were happy, I would be making every effort to find a way to improve the experience for those 9 customers. I would certainly not be press-briefing "no problem whatsoever" conclusions because more (21) are happy than unhappy (9).

[Bob_Blakey]

Having read through, albeit fairly quickly, the full PF^▸ (Penalty Fare) report it came as no surprise that, in my opinion, the document was a mixture of perfectly valid suggestions/opinions and utter twaddle (e.g. I am not going to use TVM^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine)'s because they will 'eat' my debit/credit card).

From recent personal experience (at Slough) I would suggest to the TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company)'s that they re-program the machines so that 'Anytime' tickets are not presented as an option when 'Off Peak' fares are valid, although I suspect removal of this valuable source of easy extra revenue would not be very popular with the bean-counters..

Within the 28% of dissatisfied passengers there are undoubtedly a very small number who should not be allowed out in public under any circumstances, but for the majority I am convinced that just changing the TVM screen display sequence would solve the problem. 

[Brucey]

This is the link to the full report: http://www.passengerfocus.org.uk/news-and-publications/document-search/document.asp?dsid=4237

[Tim]

The route of many of these problems was teh incompetant "ticket simplification".

I reckon I know more about ticketing than the avergae passenegr but last week I was confused over a simple journey....

1, turned up at Bath station at 820 am on a Monday morning.
2, wanted to catch the 829 to Cardiff for a journey to Swansea.
3, Queques were too long at manned desks so I used  a machine.
4, I expected to need to buy an anytime ticket as I assumed I was travelling in the peak and might be returning in the peak also.
5, The ticket options gave me an anytime single, but the only return was an "off peak return".  I brought that but was skeptical.
6, The automatic gates were open but there was a member of staff (a gate supervisor) standing by them.  I showed him my ticket as asked it if was valid.  His reply, a very casual "you're fine" left me in doubt as to whether my ticket was valid or whether he was just being lenient 'cos he wasn't in ticket checking mode.

On reflection, I expect that my ticket was what would have been called a saver return and that such tickets are valid on any train (ie there is no "peak" for that jounrey).  But if my ticket was valid at any time then surely only a moron would decide to not to print "anytime" on the ticket.

 
 

[Brucey]

On reflection, I expect that my ticket was what would have been called a saver return and that such tickets are valid on any train (ie there is no "peak" for that jounrey).  But if my ticket was valid at any time then surely only a moron would decide to not to print "anytime" on the ticket.

That ticket has restriction code 8A, which is this

OUTWARD TRAVEL               
Valid on any train.           
                             
Break of journey is not       
permitted except to change   
trains at an intermediate     
station or to access station 
facilities.                   
                             
RETURN TRAVEL                 
Valid on any train.           

The only walk-up tickets are SDS (anytime single) and SVR (off peak return).  The journey is priced by ATW^▸ (Arriva Trains Wales (former TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company))).

Split ticketing at CDF^» (Cardiff - next trains) may be cheaper.  Direct to Swansea: ^33.80
Bath to CDF (anytime return): ^20.30
CDF to Swansea (off peak return, restriction code 8A as above): ^11.10
Total ^31.40

[Tim]

thanks for the info.  But if the ticket is "valid on any train" then why not print "anytime" on the ticket.  This is stupid isn't it?

[eightf48544]

I think Tim has summed up the situation rather well. It was the incompetant simplication that caused the trouble the changing of what were Day Returns, Savers and Super Savers into "off peak" has totally muddied the waters. Most people would think off peak after 09:30 and possible restrictions in the evening (which I think are totally stupid but that's another issue) would be right to be sceptical about being sold one for a journey starting at 08:29.

To add to the confusion when there are restrictions they are often at different times for each TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) and within a TOC on particular routes.

I note also Passenger Focus refer to Super Off Peaks, what are these?

Added to the fact that you can't read the screen on the machine at Taplow i always make a special run to the station to get my ticket from the station clerk to avoid using the machine. Particularly now it doesn't take cash.

I don't agree with Bob that "The machine will eat  my debit card" is not a valid fear. Whilst we think we know TVMs^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) don't  have a card retention mechanism, like a cash machine, there is always the nagging doubt it won't be able to read the card or in the worse case sceanario the card gets stuck in the machine. It is electronic after all and will break down eventually. The more complicated it is the the sooner it will break down.

Add  the fact  it is difficult to buy (not collect) tickets in advance or Off Peak tickets before the first train where restricitons  apply (see other posts for examples). It's no wonder 9 out of 30 people shun ticket machines. Also don't forget as  Passenger Focus actually says some of the 21 who are satisfied use the same machine for the same journey on a frequent basis so are familiar with getting a ticket from the machine.

However, as long as the TOCs continue with the current ludicrous fare system then the even the most competent programmer will find it immpossible to ensure that every passenger is sold the cheapest fare for the journey/s they wish to make. As illustarted by Brucey below  for  Tim's journey. Even ticket clerks don't get it right especially where legal splits are invovled.

[JayMac]

On reflection, I expect that my ticket was what would have been called a saver return and that such tickets are valid on any train (ie there is no "peak" for that jounrey).  But if my ticket was valid at any time then surely only a moron would decide to not to print "anytime" on the ticket.

The only walk-up tickets are SDS (anytime single) and SVR (off peak return).  The journey is priced by ATW^▸ (Arriva Trains Wales (former TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company))).

Split ticketing at CDF^» (Cardiff - next trains) may be cheaper.  Direct to Swansea: ^33.80
Bath to CDF (anytime return): ^20.30
CDF to Swansea (off peak return, restriction code 8A as above): ^11.10
Total ^31.40

^29.90 if split at Newport.
BTH^» (Bath Spa - next trains)-NWP SOR ^16.80
NWP-SWA^» (Swansea - next trains) SVR ^13.10

Cheaper still if you were returning same day.... but then you have to go back to splitting at Cardiff!

[Btline]

I've started to Shun the machines - unless I know exactly what I want to buy (if this ticket is even on the machine).

I don't even use them to pick up pre-booked tickets anymore! Why? (a) The screen is useless, esp in cold weather (i.e. in the early morning when I am picking up the tickets for the long trip for the day!) (b) If I use the ticket office, I don't need to write down/print off that stupid code - I just put my card into the machine, and the staff print off the tickets! Only annoyance is that I have to sign for them!

[grahame]

...  But if the ticket is "valid on any train" then why not print "anytime" on the ticket. ....

Because it does not allow you to travel at "anytime".  Go to Fishguard at 07:00 to catch a train to Carmarthen, to Swindon at 07:30 to catch a train to Melksham, or to Pilning at 08:00 to commute into Bristol 

[Phil]

So how close are we realistically to having Oyster^▸ (Smartcard system used by passengers on Transport for London services)-like technology on National Rail? Anyone know?

Touch in - touch out (or, swipe to open the barriers at either end) and the equipment automatically calculates the most advantageous rate for that particular journey at that particular time, less a discount for using the service. Couldn't be easier or more convenient.

Anyone not wanting to use the service is welcome to queue at manned stations or buy a ticket on board, but hopefully the discounts offered by the card technology would mop up the majority of regular travellers fairly quickly. Wouldn't it?

[Tim]

...  But if the ticket is "valid on any train" then why not print "anytime" on the ticket. ....

Because it does not allow you to travel at "anytime".  Go to Fishguard at 07:00 to catch a train to Carmarthen, to Swindon at 07:30 to catch a train to Melksham, or to Pilning at 08:00 to commute into Bristol 

Sorry Graham, I don't understand your comment.  I assume that a Bath-Swansea return isn't valid via Fishguard

[Brucey]

So how close are we realistically to having Oyster^▸ (Smartcard system used by passengers on Transport for London services)-like technology on National Rail? Anyone know?

Touch in - touch out (or, swipe to open the barriers at either end) and the equipment automatically calculates the most advantageous rate for that particular journey at that particular time, less a discount for using the service. Couldn't be easier or more convenient.

I believe South West Trains are getting there.  The "touch in, touch out" readers have been in place on the platform at Cosham station since mid-2008.  The TVMs^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) also have a smart card reader.  Barriered stations (e.g. Southampton Central and Havant) all have the Oyster-style readers on the ticket barriers.

This technology won't work for people who either a) split tickets for their journey, or b) buy tickets for travelling further and cut their journey short (e.g. the Bristol - Cosham and Bristol - Havant off-peak returns).  Unless you have get off the train to touch in and out again.  Also, charging could be difficult where several fares with different routes are available.

[JayMac]

...  But if the ticket is "valid on any train" then why not print "anytime" on the ticket. ....

Because it does not allow you to travel at "anytime".  Go to Fishguard at 07:00 to catch a train to Carmarthen, to Swindon at 07:30 to catch a train to Melksham, or to Pilning at 08:00 to commute into Bristol 

Sorry Graham, I don't understand your comment.  I assume that a Bath-Swansea return isn't valid via Fishguard

I believe Graham was pointing out that whilst you may hold an 'Anytime' ticket, there may not be an 'Anytime' service from certain locations. You certainly cannot travel by train anytime you want from the locations he mentioned!