Rail passengers 'shun confusing ticket machines' (BBC News 20/07/2010)

[whole diary]

[Tim]

Thanks.  My confusion.

[RailCornwall]

Said it before but it should be perfectly simple to put every ticket in the country on every machine, as per Switzerland. No excuse really, especially with technology as it is now. The engines already exist at the online providers so it's just a question of doing the customer interfaces right.

For clarity, yes I do mean being able to buy an offpeak return from Wick to Thurso from a machine in Cornwall and vice versa.

Additionally it's absurd that Devon & Cornwall Railcard tickets can't be purchased from machines.

[JayMac]

Most people would think off peak after 09:30.....

In reality it appears quite rare for 0930 to be the starting point for 'Off Peak' fares.

In an idle moment I looked at various destinations from Bristol Temple Meads and checked the Off Peak Return (SVR) and Off Peak Day Return (CDR^▸ (Off Peak Day Return [ticket type] (formerly 'Cheap Day'))) ticket validities for the outward journey.

Bristol TM^‡(resolve) - Swansea (SVR) Anytime
Bristol TM - Grateley (SVR) Anytime
Bristol TM - Lancaster (SVR)  depart after 0415
Bristol TM - Edinburgh (not London) (SVR) 0500
Bristol TM - Weymouth (route Yeovil PM) (CDR) 0700
Bristol TM - Preston (SVR) 0754
Bristol TM - Salisbury (SVR) 0810
Bristol TM - Yeovil PM  (CDR) 0815
Bristol TM - Oxford (SVR) 0815
Bristol TM - Gloucester (CDR) 0830
Bristol TM - Exeter SD (SVR) 0833
Bristol TM - Birmingham Stns (SVR) 0930
Bristol TM - Weston SM (CDR) 0930
Bristol TM - London Paddington (Super Off Peak Return) 0945
Bristol TM - London Waterloo (route Salisbury) (CDR) arrive after 1000
Bristol TM - Peterborough (via London) (SVR) arrive at Paddington after 1005
Bristol TM - Ipswich (via London) (SVR) arrive at Paddington after 1010

....and not to forget that anything to Reading, to or through London will also be subject to evening restrictions on the return journey.

Some nice anomalies there (no surprise!). You can travel to Salisbury on a SVR after 0810, but buy your ticket to Grateley (the next station) for a couple of quid more and you can leave Bristol on the 0544. Going to Preston you can leave on the 0800 change at Brum with a SVR, but going next stop Lancaster you can leave on the 0627 change at Brum.

[grahame]

I believe Graham was pointing out that whilst you may hold an 'Anytime' ticket, there may not be an 'Anytime' service from certain locations. You certainly cannot travel by train anytime you want from the locations he mentioned!

Indeed I was - I think that if "anytime" were printed on a ticket, then it would imply that the service on offer was sufficiently frequent for you to turn up at the station and get on a train with only a reasonable wait.   Quite happy for tickets to say "anytime" between Reading and London, for example.  But not for Finstock to Oxford 

P.S. "Any train" would be more acceptable.

[readytostart]

thanks for the info.  But if the ticket is "valid on any train" then why not print "anytime" on the ticket.  This is stupid isn't it?

Because the terms are not the same as an anytime ticket, which would allow break of journey for other than connectional purposes and in the case of a return would allow the outward portion to be used to complete the journey over five days. So for example an Anytime return from say Edinburgh to London could be used by someone with day meetings in Newcastle, York, Birmingham and High Wycombe with overnight stops at each location.

[Btline]

Because the terms are not the same as an anytime ticket, which would allow break of journey for other than connectional purposes and in the case of a return would allow the outward portion to be used to complete the journey over five days. So for example an Anytime return from say Edinburgh to London could be used by someone with day meetings in Newcastle, York, Birmingham and High Wycombe with overnight stops at each location.

How many people know about this? I thought I was "savvy" knowing that outward portions of Anytime tickets were valid for 5 days - but I had no idea so many breaks of journey were available!

[paul7575]

So how close are we realistically to having Oyster^▸ (Smartcard system used by passengers on Transport for London services)-like technology on National Rail? Anyone know?

Touch in - touch out (or, swipe to open the barriers at either end) and the equipment automatically calculates the most advantageous rate for that particular journey at that particular time, less a discount for using the service. Couldn't be easier or more convenient.

SWT^▸ (South West Trains)'s card  does not provide prepay (stored payment) system, it is seasons only; and I cant see it ever working like Oyster PAYG^▸ (Pay as you go) on the main national network.

It's important to realise that Oyster PAYG works in a well defined area which is predominantly barriered, with only minimal ticket types available, all singles, one class, and there are no period returns for instance. The key to PAYG's relative simplicity is that it can deduct a maximum cash fare on entry (equivalent to a sort of deposit), and refund as appropriate on exit. For a similar system on NR^» (Network Rail - home page), where distances and therefore costs can be pretty significant, the preloaded balance would have to be significantly higher, or failing that you'd need to have a system that could talk to your bank account. 

Just try and work out how a putative national system would charge someone who touched in but didn't touched out at their destination? What charge should now be made?

Paul

[paul7575]

Said it before but it should be perfectly simple to put every ticket in the country on every machine, as per Switzerland. No excuse really, especially with technology as it is now.

Except for the new opportunites for fraud, which is why they won't do it here, whatever happens in Switzerland.

Paul

[readytostart]

Slightly off topic, what is annoying is predominantly in the old NSE^▸ (Network South East) region it's possible to buy an SDR or an SVR but not an SOR, meaning that those who buy a period return in good faith are charged for a single ticket if they choose to travel back in the peak on a different day.

For the record what I usually do is calculate the cost of two singles which is what should have been charged and then take away the price of the SVR and sell an excess for that amount but I imagine I am in the minority and would probably get a good spudding if the boss found out. (For those XCbaiters in here, see we're not all evil)

[RailCornwall]

PAYG^▸ (Pay as you go) is perfectly possible, with the same system as per London, Entry being when a ticket is obtained from either a machine or on train ticket machine with funds being drawn from a prepay amount stored on the card. If a top up of these funds is required loading from a pre registered bank or credit card would be simple, by giving the customer the pin pad onboard, or keying at a station based machine, and top up is done there and then.

The ticket loaded onto the card being available for inspection or gate exit as required.

Pre purchased tickets being available to collect from platform equipment at designated stations.  

[paul7575]

That isn't PAYG^▸ (Pay as you go) though, it's just buying a ticket from a machine or onboard, and storing it on a plastic card.  True PAYG is what was suggested earlier, where the fare isn't worked out until the end of the journey. There's a subtle difference, AFAICS^▸ (As Far As I Can See)...

Paul

[paul7575]

Slightly off topic, what is annoying is predominantly in the old NSE^▸ (Network South East) region it's possible to buy an SDR or an SVR but not an SOR, meaning that those who buy a period return in good faith are charged for a single ticket if they choose to travel back in the peak on a different day.

It's predominantly mileage based isn't it? SORs are available for journeys over about 40 miles, which I guess was some arbritary commuting boundary at some time in the past.  Certainly on the SWML^▸ (South Western Mail Line), the boundary (as far as London fares are concerned) was Fleet when I checked a few months ago.

Paul

[onthecushions]

Jargon is a necessity to any specialism in life, be it Mathematics, Theology or railway travel. What is needed is easy access to explanation of the main terms relevant to customers. For instance, off-peak means travel after 0930 in some areas, arrival in London after 1000 in others, with NC travel after 1000 and now a super off-peak (all good ideas if clearly defined, IMHO^▸ (in my humble opinion)). Even the machines can't really cope and will sometimes sell me an invalid ticket (e.g. with some railcards). Penalty fares should therefore be applied with care.

My favourites include the "non off-peak Network single" and the "cheap(?) day return". I had a spat recently asking for a ticket via Staines to be told that I should say "route Staines" as via meant a change of train. My booking office Latin tutorial on the meaning of via fell on deaf ears...

Quite the worst feature of paying by card at the blue machines is the silly positioning of the card display. A normal height adult cannot see this without bending down uncomfortably, the card display is poorly lit and the keys are not shielded from the crowds around. Why don't managers try kit before they buy to see whether it's usable?


OTC

[Chris from Nailsea]

Quite the worst feature of paying by card at the blue machines is the silly positioning of the card display. A normal height adult cannot see this without bending down uncomfortably, the card display is poorly lit and the keys are not shielded from the crowds around. Why don't managers try kit before they buy to see whether it's usable?

Absolutely right, OTC!

The Scheidt & Bachmann TVMs^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) do suffer from that very basic design fault, I think.

Was that unsatisfactory intermediate height for the card display / keypad perhaps decided upon, as a mere 'nod' towards wheelchair users under DDA^» (Disability Discrimination Act - about), thus avoiding the preferable option of installing two sensibly placed alternatives, for both wheelchair and non-wheelchair users?

Cynical?  Me?? 

[willc]

Additionally it's absurd that Devon & Cornwall Railcard tickets can't be purchased from machines.

In which case I would suggest you get FGW^▸ (First Great Western) local management to do something about it. When TVMs^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) first arrived in Oxfordshire, they would not offer Cotswold Line Railcard fares, but after persistent complaints by passengers at Charlbury and Hanborough, they were reprogrammed, along with the machines at Oxford - I assume the same also applies at the relevant Worcestershire stations - so someone, somewhere in FGW knows what to do about local railcards.