FGW's ban on disabled scooters branded 'unjust' (this is Somerset 03/07/2010)

[whole diary]

[JayMac]

From this is Somerset:

The West's biggest train operator has been accused of discrimination against the disabled after banning motorised mobility scooters on its carriages. First Great Western has banned the scooters from its entire fleet, claiming their average weight of 220lbs causes "weight issues". First's smallest engine weighs in at 24.75 tonnes.

The ban emerged after disabled war veteran John Morris tried to board a train in Weston-super-Mare, but was told he could not board with his Roma Cadiz mobility scooter.

Age Concern Bristol says the move is "unjust" and 90-year-old Mr Morris, a former Lance Sergeant in the Grenadier Guards, is threatening legal action. Mr Morris, a veteran of the North Africa campaign in the Second World War, was told the scooter was too big and heavy ^ because he has driven it aboard trains for four years, including on First's services. Mr Morris first became aware First Great Western had a problem with the scooter when he was on his way to a Somerset county cricket match in Taunton last month.

"I got on to the two-carriage train at Worle with no problem ^ the ticket collector put down a ramp so that I could drive on and telephoned ahead to make sure a ramp would be ready when I changed trains at Weston-super-Mare. But when I got to Weston, the customer services man upbraided me as if I was a child. I had to travel to Taunton by taxi instead, but after the match I went to Taunton train station and drove on to the train back to Worle with no problem. It makes no sense."

A week later Mr Morris tried to travel to Hungerford by train to welcome home troops from his old regiment who had been deployed in Afghanistan. He added: "I'd already arranged my transport to the event for the 1st Battalion Grenadier Guards in Hungerford last weekend with the help of the train company, but then I got a letter from them saying that I should not take the buggy on board and warning me not to pressurise staff. I think it is defamatory to suggest that I have pressurised staff or would do so. The letter was very humiliating."

Members of the Bristol branch of the Grenadier Guards arranged for him to travel by taxi, and paid his fare. Jessica Lewin, of Age Concern, Bristol said: "It is unjust to discriminate against people on the grounds of age or disability. Public transport is a lifeline to many older and disabled people and plays a key role in them maintaining their independence and combating isolation. It's sad in the 21st century that older people and those with disabilities are denied access to services that are taken for granted by many."

A First spokesman said: "Motorised scooters aren't designed to go on our trains. They are designed for the road and there are weight issues. We are able to accommodate motorised wheelchairs and we do our very best to make sure we accommodate and assist people."

Regarding models of scooters First do allow on its trains, it says in an online policy document: "It is the passenger's responsibility to load it (the scooter) on/off the train. We ask the disabled passenger or their travelling companion to ensure that the scooter is folded down ready for boarding prior to the trains arrival."

[devon_metro]

Perfectly reasonable, they are bloody massive. Serves a lot of them right I suppose for driving them round like they own the pavement.

[vacman]

they are too heavy for the ramps, plain and simple, it isn't descrimination it's just practicaly impossible!

[dmutony]

i totally agree with you they are to big and bulky to be on trains especially dmus as they are over crowded as it is, plus there are no room on hst's for them either!

[broadgage]

Yes, agree with the preceeding posts, these are not only too heavy for the ramps but also take up an unreasonable amount of space on the train.

Powered wheelchairs should be, and are, allowed but some of the scooters are the size of golf carts.

[grahame]

Point of information: The scooter concerned weighted in (looking up the specs) at 190 lbs - that's 86 kgs.   Almost identical to my weight. The top of the range from that manufacturer is 310 lbs / 140 kgs.

Suggestion:  The measure of "discrimination" should be for me to ask "If I, an able bodied person, wanted to travel on this train with a scooter they weighs 86 kgs, could I do so?" and if the answer is "yes", but for Mr Morris was "no", then he was indeed discriminated against.  On the other hand, if Mr Morris is allowed his scooter, but I am not allowed to bring one (perhaps for use as a runaround vehicle when I get to Paddington) then *I* would be being discriminated against.   

Interesting thought, isn't it?  If scooters are allowed for Mr Morris, then those of us who are only moderately fit and don't do well with cycles could all  start taking them too ... much greener that driving all the way, and very practical too.

Edited to correct grammar and clarify

[hornbeam]

It^s the same on buses. In peak time mums and dads refuse to fold up buggies, and I remember recently when the bus was full at rush hour a man in a wheelchair wanted to get on. The drive politely said the bus is to full, to which the disabled man demanded people should get off to make way for him- which didn^t happen. Indeed a fellow passenger pointed out he should either travel of peak or get a taxi. It^s the same on the underground- people are demanding lifts be fitted at every station which will just cost too much. If the guy was in a wheelchair he would be allowed to travel so he needs to realise that he CAN still travel by train and just needs to be flexible.
 Just feel public transport has come a long way to accommodate disabled people ( no more travelling in the guards van) but it just gets forgotten.

[LiskeardRich]

with the bus example above the bus is licenced to carry x amount of passengers seated, or y amount of passengers plus z amount of wheelchairs, y being lower than x so if the y figure is already exceeded the bus is not licenced to carry that wheelchair passenger as well!
FGW^▸ (First Great Western) are within DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) guidelines not allowing travel, as the DfT feasibility study can be found here http://www.dft.gov.uk/transportforyou/access/tipws/cmspt/carriageofmobilityscooterson6163

see points 9.2 Heavy and Light Rail, and Appendix C - Train Operating Companies' policies for the carriage of mobility scooters

FGW policy is to only carry folding wheel chairs, another interesting point is that the these mobility scooters have a maximum safe gradient of use of 8 degrees, with a majority of stations requiring up to a 16 degree ramp to access trains from platform, which exceeds permitted usage of the scooter!

[Timmer]

Perfectly reasonable, they are bloody massive. Serves a lot of them right I suppose for driving them round like they own the pavement.

It's when they drive them on the roads is when it bothers me as a motorist. It can be downright dangerous.

[Kingfisherdart]

Well done First Great Western - not allowing these contraptions on board is down to safety, not discrimination.

I feel very priviliged to be able to bring my bicycle on FGW^▸ (First Great Western)'s HST^▸ (High Speed Train) services - I don't expect it, but they've never let me down before.

Until some sort of dedicated storage area/embarkation method has been arranged for these vehicles, I think FGW are well within their rights to ban them - I've had to load them onto our Mark 1 and DMU^▸ (Diesel Multiple Unit) stock at Swanage, and they just don't tackle the train ramps properly. Were it not for ample space in the Brake vans/extended vestubles, I would refuse to carry them on our services too. I also have an issue about these vehicles being 'driven' down the platforms - because, as is inevitable, folks get too close the the edge for comfort...

[JayMac]

There is a very vocal minority within the disabled community who believe that the Disability Discrimination Act gives those less able enhanced rights over abled bodied folk. Asking passengers to get off a bus for someone in a wheelchair is one example. If the bus is full - it's full - end of. There is no special dispenasation for disabled passengers, merely improved access and a space which can also be used by pushchairs and/or standees. That space can legitimately be occupied by other passengers on a busy service and if so, with no other space for the abled bodied, a disabled passenger will just have to wait for the next bus. As would anybody if the bus was full.

Regarding bicyles, I do get mildly annoyed when fellow passengers occupy the tip up seats on Pacers when there are plenty of other seats in the saloon. Asking someone if they wouldn't mind moving often gets a scowl or sometimes worse.

[Super Guard]

I seem to remember reading not so long ago, that tests had been done on HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train) loading a variety of scooters using the 2 different types of ramps FGW^▸ (First Great Western) use at Paddington (and possibly another station), and the tests concluded that there was a risk of injury loading/unloading to the occupant of the scooter in some models.

Can you imagine the outcry if the scooter had been accepted and then an accident loading/unloading had occurred?

Re: The bus story, I never understand why a wheelchair user feels that able body passengers should be discriminated against and expected to get off just to accommodate them 

[Super Guard]

see points 9.2 Heavy and Light Rail, and Appendix C - Train Operating Companies' policies for the carriage of mobility scooters

FGW^▸ (First Great Western) policy is to only carry folding wheel chairs, another interesting point is that the these mobility scooters have a maximum safe gradient of use of 8 degrees, with a majority of stations requiring up to a 16 degree ramp to access trains from platform, which exceeds permitted usage of the scooter!

Thank you, this was one of the main reasons why after testing it was deemed to not accept them.

[brompton rail]

Electrically powered scooters are very heavy, as you will discover if someone drives on into your legs at the supermarket checkout!
I understand that First Group buses have banned them since one destroyed the loading ramp that folds out of the entrance step.

Electrically powered wheel chairs are accommodated on trains as the should be narrow enough to pass through interior doorways (e.g. On HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train) or Voyagers) to reach the designated "wheelchair" space. I have seen them on some local units including 150s and West Yorkshire PTE^▸ (Passenger Transport Executive) have signed positions on platforms between Doncaster and Leeds where wheelchair users should wait to join the train (the train ramp as located at this door too). Of course this is only of use if the class 321 units diagrammed for the route are used! Nodding donkeys are off limits for anything bigger than a folding bike.

Presumably the wheelchair user who demanded that passengers get off the bus to allow him to join would be prepared to get off if a blind person wanted to join and the bus was full.

[Tim]

IIRC^▸ (if I recall/remember/read correctly), Tyne and Wear metro banned scooters after one entered a train and crashed through the opposite doors onto a running line. 

There does seem to be an increase in the number of scooters and a decline in electric wheelchairs.  Is it just a fashion thing (people thinking wheelchairs are "uncool"?) or maybe they have just become more affordable.

FGW^▸ (First Great Western)'s policy seems a sensible comprimise to me.  They are not descriminating against people who cant walk (because they allow those people in wheelchairs and will lay on staff to assist) they are descriminating against people who use scooters which is a different thing entirely.

of course one solution would be to restart Motorail.