Terror arrest threat for taking photos on overcrowded train. (Mail 07/07/10)

[whole diary]

[inspector_blakey]

That's because he (and presumably everyone else on the train) are so important that they absolutely must take that service, even at possible detriment to their personal safety. I really don't know what these sorts of clowns who bleat on about busy trains being "unsafe" expect rail staff to do in that situation, since you can guarantee they'd be the first to go running to the Daily Hate were they asked to step off...!

And just a thought that didn't occur to me yesterday, but how is there always a distressed elderly couple involved in every incident like this reported to the press? Do you think they're professionals who tour the country seeking out overcrowded trains to look upset about?!

[devon_metro]

And just a thought that didn't occur to me yesterday, but how is there always a distressed elderly couple involved in every incident like this reported to the press? Do you think they're professionals who tour the country seeking out overcrowded trains to look upset about?!

Because they find reason to moan about the slightest thing, of course it is normally caused by young people!

[thetrout]

Because they find reason to moan about the slightest thing, of course it is normally caused by young people!

As an aside... I'm sorry to say it, but I couldn't help but agree with this...!

Whilst I don't normally have a problem with the Elderly, there are situations when the Elderly annoy young people. Well in that case that is just unfortunate and normally brushed aside... But as soon as a young person causes distress to the Elderly, all of a sudden, everyone wants to hear about it and labels the YP as in the wrong, even if the Elderly person was in the wrong to start with! Now I think that is disgraceful. But then people wonder why us youngens have a bitter attitude towards the Elderly. The two go hand in hand!

Personally, I think they're just as bad at times. I for one absolutely hate being told i'm in First Class by people, but the elderly seem to expect you to move... not on your nelly when i've paid however much extra to sit there... now where is my cup of coffee...

I'm going to shut up now as I fear i've opened a tin of worms!

[grahame]

And just a thought that didn't occur to me yesterday, but how is there always a distressed elderly couple involved in every incident like this reported to the press? Do you think they're professionals who tour the country seeking out overcrowded trains to look upset about?!

Because distressed elderly couples sell newspapers.  Distressed young people are suspected as being under the influence of alcohol or other substances ... or of being in the loo to avoid payment or for other reasons, and not because it was the only seat left 

It's a shame that people get stereotyped by their age ... there are some lovely old people around, but my goodness I've come across some nasty ones too.  Just like with other groupings too!

[Chris from Nailsea]

Sadly incidents like this gives the railway a bad name in the eyes of the public.

I agree, 158747 - and welcome to the Coffee Shop forum! 

[vacman]

If the bloke thought it was unsafe then why oh why did he put himself in a position of what he considered danger by getting on the train? If he REALLY thought it was unsafe he wouldn't have got on!

[Btline]

If the bloke thought it was unsafe then why oh why did he put himself in a position of what he considered danger by getting on the train? If he REALLY thought it was unsafe he wouldn't have got on!

Maybe he had an Advance ticket.

[super tm]

If the bloke thought it was unsafe then why oh why did he put himself in a position of what he considered danger by getting on the train? If he REALLY thought it was unsafe he wouldn't have got on!

Maybe he had an Advance ticket.

SWT^▸ (South West Trains) dont give you a seat reservation with an advance ticket.  I believe that you cannot be forced to stand on a train and if you cannot get a seat then your advance ticket will be valid on the next train.  AIUI^▸ (as I understand it) advance tickets always used to come with a reservation just so this problem should not arise.

[Henry]

 Of course years ago this could all have been avoided.
 I remember when special charter trains would run Waterloo- Southampton whenever needed.

[JayMac]

Another story in a similar vein:

From the North Kent News Shopper (03/08/2010)

GRAVESEND: Commuter detained for taking photos

A commuter has been left ^angry and intimidated^ after being detained at a railway station for taking photos.

Olly Cromwell, an IT worker from Streatham, was ordered off his Southeastern train at Gravesend by Rail Enforcement Officers (REO) after taking photos of them on his mobile phone. Mr Cromwell, who wanted to use the photos for his blog, took them whilst waiting with his wife on the platform, as well as one on the train. The father-of-one said: ^I had heard a lot about how REOs abuse their power and wanted the pictures in case I ever wrote a blog about them in the future.^ Mr Cromwell told News Shopper two of the officers asked to see his photos and when he refused, used the Terrorism Act as a reason to ask him to delete them. After telling the officers they had no authority to enforce it, Mr Cromwell claims they demanded he get off the train and would relay his description to the police for arrest if he refused.

The 36-year-old said: ^I was pretty angry with them and intimidated. The fact that private companies and their employees think they have the right to carry out actions like this and intimidate customers is very scary indeed.^

After being taken off the train, Mr Cromwell was taken to Dartford rail station where he claims he had to wait against his will on the platform for the British Transport Police (BTP^▸ (British Transport Police)).

A spokesman for the BTP said: ^BTP were called to Dartford rail station after staff reported a man taking photographs. After attending and speaking with the man, officers concluded that no offences had been committed and he was allowed to go on his way. The power to stop members of the public under the Terrorism Act resides only with police officers and with police community support officers when accompanied by a police officer, and only when that power is authorised by an officer ranking Assistant Chief Constable or above."

Mr Cromwell told News Shopper he hopes his story will help people know their rights.

He said: ^I aim to educate not only the average person on the street, but the company and it's employees too about what commuters are allowed to do.^

A spokesman for Southeastern trains said the public are free to take photos of their trains and stations but should ask permission before taking photos of employees. He said: ^If any of our employees, including REOs, are likely to feature in photographs as individuals, we'd appreciate as a common courtesy, the photographer asking for their permission whenever possible. Photographers should only go onto areas that are open to the general public and don't cause an obstruction to passengers or staff. Permission should be sought for any photographs taken of our trains and property for publication purposes."

A spokesman for the BTP said the public has the right to take photographs and film in public places.

He said: ^Taking photographs is not normally cause for suspicion and there are no powers prohibiting the taking of photographs, film or digital images in a public place.^

OK, so he should've asked for permission, but to use the Terrorism Act (which one were the REO's thinking they had the right to use? There are several) to detain him and then take him to another station is far beyond the powers of an REO, RPI^▸ (Revenue Protection Inspector (or Retail Price Index, depending on the context)) etc. I'd sue for false imprisonment.

[Chris from Nailsea]

A spokesman for the BTP^▸ (British Transport Police) said: ^BTP were called to Dartford rail station after staff reported a man taking photographs. After attending and speaking with the man, officers concluded that no offences had been committed and he was allowed to go on his way. The power to stop members of the public under the Terrorism Act resides only with police officers and with police community support officers when accompanied by a police officer, and only when that power is authorised by an officer ranking Assistant Chief Constable or above."

Jobsworths: please note.

CfN. 

[devon_metro]

I'd probably laugh in their faces. Muppets.

[inspector_blakey]

Two things about this story bother me:

1. SE's "rail enforcement officers" seem to have got it into their silly little heads that they have the power of arrest and detention, and yet no apology is forthcoming from the rail company.
2. BTP^▸ (British Transport Police) actually dignified the report of "a man taking photographs" with a police response rather than simply telling these REO clowns to p*ss off and stop being so stupid. At the very least that's a cretinous deployment of resources that could have been better utilized elsewhere.

I do rather hope that Olly Cromwell (what on earth were his parents thinking...?!) uses all legal channels at his disposal to take SE to the cleaners.

[JayMac]

I think Olly Cromwell's story was briefly referenced elsewhere on the forum (or did I imagine it? I can't find it!). He's a semi-political blogger and further details of his dealings with Southeastern et-al can be found on his blog:

http://youve-been-cromwelled.org/?p=1116

It maybe coincidence that he shares his name with the 17th Century Lord Protector, but I suspect it's a nom-de-plume somewhat in the style of Paul Staines' Guido Fawkes blog.

Word of warning: The language is a bit fruity at times!

[Super Guard]

This line always gets me, now I know there are times when trains are packed to the gunnels and you literally can't squeeze anyone else in but generally nowhere near as bad as a tube train at rush hour. A disaster waiting to happen and unsafe?, yet he still decided to travel on that train.

That's generally my line when I get complaining "how am I supposed to squeeze on, it's totally unsafe...".  I apologise and advise them when the next service is.  Before i've finished talking they've somehow crammed onto the "unsafe" train