Class 180 Adelantes - discussions, including their return to FGW

[whole diary]

[IndustryInsider]

Absolute rubbish.  You're just annoyed that the rumours turned out to be true. 

[ChrisB]

Really doesn't bother me - IF it'sd true, I'll be the first to accept I was wrong. They've got to go somewhere!

And further - it'll be likely that the DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) will have done a cheap deal - which was the sticking point anyway!

[inspector_blakey]

Seems a bit odd - trains built by Alstom, engines are Cummins diesels, hydraulic transmission manufactured by Voith. All of those are big, successful companies which are still in business, are they really not providing support for their products just 10 years after they were built? How on earth was a fleet of trains built with no allowance made for spares and maintenance beyond barely a third of their expected service life?

[ChrisB]

Someone would need to enter a contract....with that few built, it was easier to persuade the dft it was cheaper to canibalise....

[JayMac]

Surely maintenance contracts are the responsibility of the rolling stock owner if they are off-lease, not the DfT^» (Department for Transport - about)?

[laird]

There are plenty of systems that are not in themselves obsolete but which benefit from cannibalisation of components from others to speed up the supply chain response time.

I've never really understood why the 180s ended up with the reputation for being unreliable is there an underlying problem with them?
Of those I've travelled on (lots back when they were on FGW^▸ (First Great Western) plus two Northern and even a GC^» (Great Central Railway - link to heritage line) example) all bar one ran on time. The audio carriage was a bit of a let down in that having the cables run exposed on its way through the arm joint seemed the most noticeable flaw in the design.
The one that did delay me was on a trip from Taunton to Reading where on approach to Newbury an emergency brake application brought us to a standstill, word from the train manager was that the empty five cars at the rear had triggered an emergency stop. Rumour had it that they had partially uncoupled but I never heard it confirmed.

[dog box]

The things were basically built on the cheap by Alstom a company not known for the production of DMUs^▸ (Diesel Multiple Unit) to compete with  the Bombardier Voyager.
There was a lot of bad design faults which caused untold problems at 125mph running, as well as Random bits just falling off.
They seem to be better now though as a lot of work has been done to them. dont think spares provision has ever been brilliant with them

[willc]

Crikey, cheer up. From the tone of some of these posts you'd think someone was taking five trains off FGW^▸ (First Great Western), not giving them five more, offering the prospect of 1,100 extra seats out there in the peaks - and of again meeting that pledge from 2004.

As for spares, as the inspector notes, all the major components are from big manufacturers and are in widespread use in rail applications here (the same engines as Voyagers and Meridians) and in Europe (the transmissions), so they won't have any problem with those. As for anything else, there's always someone out there who will make it, for a price.

Obsolete? For goodness' sake, the last Class 101s were finally pensioned off in 2003 - that's 47 years after BR^▸ (British Rail(ways)) took delivery of the first.

The leasing company might just get the parts in to repair 104 and build up a stock now that it knows where all the trains will be working - and it's probably a rather less challenging job to get 104 back in shape than one of the XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) HST^▸ (High Speed Train) power cars, which was basically a rotting hulk that had been dumped at Neville Hill depot in Leeds  for years.

it was easier to persuade the dft it was cheaper to canibalise....

I know DafT are very keen on micro-management but the idea that they are actually being asked about whether a fitter at Old Oak Common can rob a part from 104 to keep a Hull Trains set in traffic takes the biscuit. And whatever OOC^▸ (Old Oak Common (depot)) are doing with the HT^▸ (Hull Trains) sets is getting results, with steadily improving reliability. But it's to be hoped that the dmu cascade starts in good time, so they can get the FGW returnees in decent shape well before December.

And if 180s are so cripplingly expensive to lease and operate, how are Hull Trains and Grand Central still in business?

[laird]

The difference when we think about obsolesence in the older units is that they weren't so dependent on the electronic components, now almost as the DMU^▸ (Diesel Multiple Unit) is being built the components on the PCBs will be out of production.
The pace of component development means that where the components of the 1947 DMU would be available for some period and subsequently alternatives would be available that isn't as easy today.

[IndustryInsider]

With two sets leased but not in service (180102/4) then it does indeed make sense to 'cannibalise' them for spare parts if there would be a delay in getting that component from a supplier.  There's a world of difference between that situation and these sets being stripped of parts left right and centre just to keep the rest of the fleet struggling on for a little longer!

As it is, perhaps this deal for FGW^▸ (First Great Western) only involves the three units in service with Northern Trains (i.e. for two diagrams) rather than the full five spare units (for three, or at a push, four diagrams),  in which case 102/4 could carry on being occasional donors to the rest of the fleet. 

If all 5 are to be taken on by FGW (as I hope), then expect components to be ordered, replaced and for them to be up and running again with little bother.

[anthony215]

To be honest i do prefer the class 180's over the voyagers. The class 180's have  much better seating and you  feel a crammed in as you do with the class 220/221 units. Ideally you should have a class 180 bodyshell on the  voyager undercarriage.

[laird]

Perhaps the reason we like the seating on an Adelante is that it is a little more generous in pitch?
The seats on the Adelante almost look old fashioned now in that the seats aren't quite so high backed as we see on the FGW^▸ (First Great Western) HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train) and perhaps it helps in comparison to the Voyager that the seats are aligned somewhat more pleasantly for those wanting to wind gaze.
I wonder if the Adelante was to be fitted with high density seating if we would feel the same.
If the Adelante is going to come back to FGW the number of seats must be a consideration, I seem to recall when they were introduced there wasn't much difference in standard class seating numbers between the old layout HST and an Adelante and when run in ten car formation there was more standard class seating that a single HST. I presume since the switch to high density HSTs that has changed. If the Adelante fleet is going to end up on the Paddington-Oxford services the journey time is short so perhaps it lends itself to replacing the seating with more HST style seats? Certainly all the interiors were looking tired when they left FGW, they haven't improved much from my personal observation (indeed they could be a bit worse from wear) so maybe it is an opportunity when they come back, perhaps we could see the at seat audio return or volo added - or what about wifi, Grand Central have found a way to install it so perhaps the same modification could be applied before reintroduction to FGW service?

[ChrisB]

I seem to recall when they were introduced there wasn't much difference in standard class seating numbers between the old layout HST^▸ (High Speed Train) and an Adelante and when run in ten car formation there was more standard class seating that a single HST.

I think you mis-remember. One of the reasons that FGW^▸ (First Great Western) gave them up was that there were the same number of seats on a 5car Adelante as there are on a 3car turbo - and of course, track access charges are based on axle count....so they are 40% more expensive to run than a turbo, for the same number of seats. The old-style HST had far more seats than a 3car turbo.....there may have been more seats on a 10car Adelante coupling than an old-style HST though, that's true.

I presume since the switch to high density HSTs that has changed. If the Adelante fleet is going to end up on the Paddington-Oxford services the journey time is short so perhaps it lends itself to replacing the seating with more HST style seats?

I'm sure that this will form part of the discussions FGW will be having with the DfT^» (Department for Transport - about), but the DfT will have to find a way of paying for the conversion, because the TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) won't be interested....

perhaps we could see the at seat audio return or volo added - or what about wifi,

Again, only if VOLO are interested in paying for it. I can't see FGW being inmterested, when there is little left in this franchise. Decisions, decisions, including whether FGW want to continue beyond 2013 all need taking by year-end....

[laird]

Having now looked into it a bit courtesy of Wikipedia for the five car sets:
180s have up to 287 seats, reading elsewhere perhaps 42 of which are First Class
221s in Virgin West Coast format have 26 first class and 236 standard class seats
221s in Virgin North Wales format have 84 first class and 178 standard class seats
221s in CrossCountry format have 26 first class and 252 standard class seats
222s in East Midlands Trains format 50 first and 192 standard class seats

It somewhat challenges my initial perception that the 180 was nicer onboard because it had sacrificed seats for comfort. Given that the 180 has a cafe, full first class carriage (rather than being shared with the driving equipment and food prep area).
Maybe there are more luggage racks in a Voyager/Meridian? Is there some other technique that has squeezed in more seating to the 180?

You might hope that Volo would see a benefit in equipping the trains in that since they seem to end up moving between operators more often than has been true of the other units so they might be able to persuade whoever ends up with the 180s after FGW^▸ (First Great Western) to keep their service. :-)
I wonder if the franchises could be changed in future so rather than the return on investment calculation saying only invest in the initial years to something that would encourage innovation and change throughout the life of the franchise, it would perhaps help here with the 180s and for West Coast would perhaps have meant the longer Pendolino would have come in automatically. It might also help when the operators change over in that the new operator would be taking on a company that hadn^t been starved of investment over the preceding year.

[willc]

It somewhat challenges my initial perception that the 180 was nicer onboard because it had sacrificed seats for comfort.

The 180 is a far nicer train, full stop. Though Meridians are slightly less nasty than a Voyager. If you want to see an interesting article about train comfort, get the latest Modern Railways, where there is a huge table rating journeys on all kinds of trains - the 180 is up near the top of the league. Voyagers and Meridians right at the bottom along with Pacers. One of the reasons 180s have a decent number of seats by comparison with a Voyager, in particular, is that they don't have three disabled toilets per five-car train taking up vast amounts of floor space.

there were the same number of seats on a 5car Adelante as there are on a 3car turbo

Depends which variety of Turbo you mean Chris - there are 275 on a 165, more like 250 on a 166, due to the luggage spaces and 2+2 section with tables. A 180 has 284, though that I think includes the perch seats, so 270-odd proper seats on a 180. And these are seats you can sit comfortably in, as you well know Chris - quite unlike the 3+2s on a Turbo, which do not allow for the fact that human bodies have arms attached. And the Turbo seats are fitted right up against the bodyside, so you can't actually sit straight in the window seats anyway, even if the adjacent seat is unoccupied. Those seats were never intended for use on long-distance services.

FGW^▸ (First Great Western)'s accounts department may be touched by your concern for their track access payments. I would be rather more concerned about the groans and shrugs of resignation from passengers on Cotswold Line platforms when a Turbo hoves into view. HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train) and Adelantes don't produce either effect - why might that be? And as several posters here frequently suggest, there are people who won't go near the Cotswold Line because they might encounter a Turbo, which must be hurting FGW's bottom line.

If the Adelante fleet is going to end up on the Paddington-Oxford services the journey time is short

But it isn't on services out to Worcester, Malvern and Hereford, which is what these trains will actually be used for most of the time, so the old seats with new trim will do just fine thanks. And 2x180 still has more standard seats than a high-density HST, something like 440-450 v 400, which was why FGW used a pair of 180s from Oxford into London every weekday morning pretty much until the end of Adelante operations in 2009.

Insider, I think it's a safe bet that FGW will be getting all five sets in working order. Even when FGW only had three sets left on the books, there was a degree of rotation with the stored sets, which won't be an option in future.