Class 180 Adelantes - discussions, including their return to FGW

[whole diary]

[willc]

Any talk of a return to FGW^▸ (First Great Western) of the class 180s will need financial assistance from the tax payer.

The same would apply to any other operator getting them. And DafT is on record as saying that the five sets will go to a franchised operator - and won't want any stories in the papers and on TV about trains sitting in sidings like all those ex-Wessex dmus at Eastleigh in 2007 - so there will be negotiations going on about where they might go and how the leases are going to be paid for.

[IndustryInsider]

Had a chat with a fairly senior manager the other day who was very clear in that it was almost a certainty that 'some' Class 180's would be returning, so I was just about to make a post about it  and lo-and-behold the latest edition of RAIL popped through my letterbox pretty much confirming that fact!

The manager said that at least one set would be arriving around September for crew training/re-training, presumably in time to take on some workings around the December timetable change?

I've dragged up this old post I made on the subject last year, as it still stands as a sensible use of them in my opinion.  You could also add another diagram if all 5 surplus units were to return as follows:

Diagram 3:
08:22 Paddington to Hereford (due 11:44)
13:11 Hereford to Paddington (due 16:11)
18:51 Paddington to Oxford (due 19:50)

Or you could combine it with Diagram 2 in the evening peak and run a 10-car service out of Paddington calling Slough, Maidenhead, Twyford, Reading and stations at Oxford to replace the much missed 18:33?

Obviously there's a lot of fine tuning to be done and a whole raft of staff to re-train (along with an amended Cotswold Line timetable), but that gives you some idea of what could be done.

Though in many ways I hope it is true as you could do a lot worse than bang them on the following diagrams that are currently Turbo's (or the odd HST^▸ (High Speed Train) with capacity in abundance):

Diagram 1:
1W12  06:48 Paddington to Great Malvern (due 09:43)
1P40  09:54 Great Malvern to Paddington (due 12:29)
1W33  13:21 Paddington to Great Malvern (due 16:00)
1P73  17:00 Great Malvern to Paddington (due 20:06)
1D77  20:51 Paddington to Oxford (due 21:47)
1P85  22:11 Oxford to Paddington (due 23:24)

Diagram 2: 
1D03  05:17 Paddington to Oxford (due 06:22)
1P22  07:21 Oxford to Paddington (due 08:58)
1W21  09:21 Paddington to Worcester F. St. (due 11:39)
1P47  12:06 Worcester F. St. to Paddington (due 14:29)
1D43  14:50 Paddington to Oxford (due 15:47)
1P57  16:01 Oxford to Paddington (due 16:59)
1D73  19:50 Paddington to Oxford (due 20:47)
1P81  21:01 Oxford to Paddington (due 21:59) - amended from 21:31 on original post


A slight increase in capacity, and a huge increase in comfort for some of the trains that have now reverted to Turbos.  All that you'd need is for the 08:58 Great Malvern to Paddington to revert back to a HST and the Cotswold Line's lot would be much better with nearly all of the long distance trains having a sensible capacity and rid of the Turbo's on most trains beyond Moreton.

Guess what?  Those Turbo's freed could then be used to provide some much needed capacity on the peak time suburban service too!

[anthony215]

Maybe a class 165/166 could be spared  to provide a off-peak service between Swindon & Westbury if the stock can be cleared for the route.

[dog box]

Maybe a class 165/166 could be spared  to provide a off-peak service between Swindon & Westbury if the stock can be cleared for the route.

No Chance of that happening, No West Drivers, Guards sign the Traction, anything that happens for Swindon & Westbury will utilise existing Traction Classes, 143,150, 153, 158

[eightf48544]

No Chance of that happening, No West Drivers, Guards sign the Traction, anything that happens for Swindon & Westbury will utilise existing Traction Classes, 143,150, 153, 158

That's the trouble with modern traction now if it were 5 Standard Fives that would be would be ideal they could go most places, pull a resonable train and any depot  could run them. Or even some Standard 4 tanks would be ideal for Westbury Swindon.

i would have said 8Fs but they are not fast enough couldn't do 90!

[super tm]

Maybe a class 165/166 could be spared  to provide a off-peak service between Swindon & Westbury if the stock can be cleared for the route.

No Chance of that happening, No West Drivers, Guards sign the Traction, anything that happens for Swindon & Westbury will utilise existing Traction Classes, 143,150, 153, 158

Yes but HSS^▸ (High Speed Services) drivers and guards sign the route Swindon to Westbury.

[willc]

Had a chat with a fairly senior manager the other day who was very clear in that it was almost a certainty that 'some' Class 180's would be returning, so I was just about to make a post about it  and lo-and-behold the latest edition of RAIL popped through my letterbox pretty much confirming that fact!

The manager said that at least one set would be arriving around September for crew training/re-training, presumably in time to take on some workings around the December timetable change?

Good news. Would be most welcome on the 06.48 diagram from September 5th, when an interim revised Cotswold Line timetable is likely to start. Oxford and Worcester staff were trained on 180s from August 2004 on the 05.48 diagram but to do that now would be asking for trouble in terms of the loading south of Oxford. I would have though they might be able to get their hands on one of the two floating sets (ie not on Northern's books) before September.

Would make sense to deploy them off-peak to Hereford in place of lightly-loaded HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train) but then again, they might also help address the question of how to offer more London-Worcester workings post-redoubling. And a 10-car formation would be very popular for the 07.33 from Oxford. Also raises the prospect of extra Shipton stops without the expense of extending the up platform as well as some 166s going back to Reading-Gatwick

[ChrisB]

Good news. Would be most welcome on the 06.48 diagram from September 5th, when an interim revised Cotswold Line timetable is likely to start.

My understanding is that the new TT is due to start a week later....

I would have though they might be able to get their hands on one of the two floating sets (ie not on Northern's books) before September.

Depends on finance agreements with the DfT^» (Department for Transport - about).....

they might also help address the question of how to offer more London-Worcester workings post-redoubling.

More likely to be used to reduce overcrowding....any extra WOS^» (Worcester Shrub Hill - next trains) trips will need to be self-financing if they're going to use a more-expensive-than-a-turbo set....one can hope though.

[willc]

Depends on finance agreements with the DfT^» (Department for Transport - about).....

Really? Well I never.

But clearly an agreement of some sort is now in place and I'm not sure whether such an agreement would preclude them, subject to the leasing company's consent, going and having a play in the sidings at Old Oak Common, where I believe 180104 has been sitting around doing nothing for some months. What I meant, and clearly should have spelled out, was they might be able to get one for out-of-service training before September, or is DafT so daft as to stop them doing even that?

More likely to be used to reduce overcrowding....any extra WOS^» (Worcester Shrub Hill - next trains) trips will need to be self-financing if they're going to use a more-expensive-than-a-turbo set....one can hope though.

Any extra Worcester trips would be at times of the day when there isn't overcrowding in the Thames Valley, ie late morning and early afternoon. Perfectly feasible, (subject to finance...) to diagram them to be back in London to form up pairs for the peak or free HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train) from jobs like the 17.50 to Worcester and 17.48 to Cheltenham, though if the 17.50 is to have 20 minutes cut from the running time and make connections for Malvern, Droitwich and Kidderminster at Worcester, then it might become a much more attractive proposition for passengers heading west of Moreton-in-Marsh.

[IndustryInsider]

And a 10-car formation would be very popular for the 07.33 from Oxford.

That would certainly be a possibility if you ran the units down with the 05:17 Paddington to Oxford (or equivalent).

[dog box]

180104 is as you rightly say is at OOC^▸ (Old Oak Common (depot)) dont think its going to be going to far in a hurry because lots and lots of bits are missing as i understand its being used as a spares donor vehicle to keep the hull trains units operational as spares avalibility for the class have been critical for a considerable time now

[ChrisB]

And that will be an issue for any TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) looking to take any spare sets

[dog box]

And that will be an issue for any TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) looking to take any spare sets

precisely.... although similar to a 175 many parts are unique with only 14 Units and after 10 odd years the class could be regarded as obsolete.
The 180 has been very much a complete lash up from start to finish really

[IndustryInsider]

Whilst I'd never claim the Class 180 story has been an totally successful one, and it would be better to keep the fleet with one operator to maximise their efficiency, I'd hardly describe them as obsolete.  After all, in terms of availability of spares, there's exactly the same number of Class 180 vehicles (70) out there as there are Class 175's.  Would you describe them as obsolete?

[ChrisB]

I think it's fair to describe any product that can no longer be maintained other than by robbing another of the same product for spares, as obsolete, yes.