Class 180 Adelantes - discussions, including their return to FGW

[whole diary]

[IndustryInsider]

Yes, that's one of the reasons for doing the trip - to see how busy 3/4 car 378's are on the off-peak services and whether anyone is standing (obviously getting a seat on a peak train has always been an issue) - before the frequency of the West London Lines are ramped up next May.

[inspector_blakey]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the only recent build units for mail line railways not built without a toilet are the 172's for London Overground aren't they?

Don't know whether they'd necessarily be considered recent, but the class 376 units in use at Southeastern are also khazi-free.

[IndustryInsider]

Thanks Blakey - I was unaware of them and I'd certainly call them a recent build.  I bet there will be many more people travelling on those per day than there will on the 313's down on the South Coast - albeit on shorter journeys on average - I don't remember quite so much of a media circus then though?

If they were to ever find themselves being cascaded to a longer distance route, presumably retro-fitting of toilets would be possible if the bodyshell is based on a normal Electrostar?

[inspector_blakey]

I do remember there being a moderate stir at the time the units were introduced about the lack of toilets, although I don't think it ever amounted to much. Unfortunately I can't find any of those old news stories on the web (doesn't help that there are no sources quoted in the Wikipedia article). South Eastern (as I think they were spelling it at the time) did promise that station toilet facilities would be improved, although I don't really know if that promise was kept!

I'm pretty sure though that it wasn't whipped up into a hugely over-hyped media frenzy courtesy of the RMT^▸ (National Union of Rail, Maritime & Transport Workers) at the time though!

[northwesterntrains]

Is there an official rule on trains without working toilets doing extended toilet stops at certain stations if the journey exceeds a certain length?

Northern have used 150s without working toilets on Blackpool-Buxton services of around 2 hr 30 and people stated Northern are breaking rules by not arranging an extended toilet stop, but the people saying that probably don't know if there are any rules!

[IndustryInsider]

Not sure what the exact rules are either.  It's not unheard to find a toilet out of use on Cotswold Line services - usually with the 2-car on the halts service given that the toilets in most of the 2-cars are a terrible design and block easily.  In which case I can remember the full range of options being utilised, i.e. train cancelled, another train stepped up with a delay, a toilet stop arranged at Moreton-In-Marsh, or no action at all.  So it's fairly random!

That set works two services of around 1 hour 45mins.  I do know that the Senior Conductor working the 17:31 halts train is specifically required to check the toilet is in working order before departure (and a travelling cleaner is also booked on the previous working of the train, the 16:30 to Bicester) though what action is taken in the event of it being out of service is unclear!

Note to Mods: We've drifted a little off-topic again- could you consider splitting the thread?

[paul7575]

To add to my post from yesterday, perhaps the FGW^▸ (First Great Western) Director can explain why some of the FGW Turbo fleet has already been fitted with a circuit breaker in the cab (i.e. an isolation switch if it is faulty) specifically marked 'GSM-R^▸ (Global System for Mobile communications - Railway. A simple mobile phone that has been fitted to the turbos to allow them to operate on lines that are not covered by the cab secure radio (CSR). This allows the Network Rail control centre to send simple STOP messages to the driver or the driver to contact the controller in emergency only. When this system is in operation a guard must be provided when in passenger operation.)'? in the last couple of months?  I don't see why you'd fit equipment to isolate something which there are currently no plans to fit?

There must be plans to fit GSM(R) to the Turbos, even if not immediately, because NR^» (Network Rail - home page) have a plan in place (NCN 5) to change the whole network over to GSM(R).  Major pdf file here all about it, nearly 300 pages:

http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse%20documents/network%20code/network%20change/current%20proposals/gsm-r%20project/ncn5%20national%20rollout%20in%20great%20britain/ncn5%20-%20gsm-r%20national%20rollout%20issue%201.pdf

According to NCN 5, which was published in April this year, the fitting dates for FGWs turbos is:

Class 165/1 - First Great Western(GSM-R replaces GSMP) - (70 Radios) 21-May-10 21-May-13
Class 166 - First Great Western (GSM-R replaces GSMP) - (40 Radios) 26-May-10 25-Oct-13

 [shown in milestones on Page 153 of the pdf file - in Annex C]

FGW's fleet seems to include the first of class trial for 165 and 166, I think as opposed to Chiltern, who will not have a first of class 165, but do for 168s.  I get the impression from NCN 5 that a 'lead TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company)' for each class in widespread use has been decided upon.

Paul



 


 

[willc]

The new issue of Modern Railways has a story about Adelantes possibly returning to FGW^▸ (First Great Western), taking a similar line to the one in Rail, talking about them being "ideally suited" for off-peak services in place of HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train (Inter City class 43 125 units)) (what about Turbos too??) and saying a return to FGW is "the most likely outcome". It adds that they would provide cover should an HST life-extension programme be needed if the IEP^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project. This will offer more capacity on routes, save money, give a consistent and safe service and meet customer requirements. Intended to replace HSTs.) bites the dust.

We shall see. I expect more concrete news may emerge once DafT knows how much money it has to spend after the Government's spending review announcement next month.

The same article adds that all the six remaining London Overground Class 150s are expected to be with FGW by mid-October, once the Class 172s take over all the Gospel Oak-Barking runs.

[northwesterntrains]

The same article adds that all the six remaining London Overground Class 150s are expected to be with FGW^▸ (First Great Western) by mid-October, once the Class 172s take over all the Gospel Oak-Barking runs.

Which in turn will mean the 142s with FGW will return to Northern in time from the December timetable change and the 180s with Northern will be off lease (the 180s had previously had the sub-lease extended from May 2010 to October 2010 to December 2010 due to delays with the 172 delivery.)

[Nibat]

The rumours around Exeter say that the 150's will be arriving next week to replace the ATW^▸ (Arriva Trains Wales (former Train Operating Company)) units and one of the engine and coaches, the one that comes down to PGN.  If this is correct, next friday could be the last service.  The second loco hauled diagram is staying for a bit longer, around mid-october I think.

Now, at the moment it's only a rumour, I won't believe it until I see them!!!

[anthony215]

I think some of the class 172's with london overground have gone back to Derby.

The latest date for the class 150's to be sent to FGW^▸ (First Great Western) i have been told  is 15th october, but i suspect that this may be pushed back again.

[IndustryInsider]

It's not unheard to find a toilet out of use on Cotswold Line services

Happened today in fact.  Three car 165 on the 18:29 Great Malvern to Paddington.  Journey time 3hrs, even though with no padding and pathing allowances, the journey should be over 30 mins quicker.  No toilet as it had packed up somewhere on the journey down from Paddington.  The S/Con told me that it's been reported as faulty several times the last few days.  The only relief [sorry] for anybody on board was at Worcester Shrub Hill where the train was booked a 15-minute layover - though anybody wishing to take advantage of it would have to traipse over the footbridge and down the end of the other platform as there's no toilets (or waiting room - STILL!) on that platform. 

No trolley service either, and the S/Con also told me that the train hadn't been cleaned before departure from Paddington and he'd managed to fill three plastic bags full of rubbish at Malvern.  Poor.  Very poor!

[inspector_blakey]

I think some of the class 172's with london overground have gone back to Derby.

The latest date for the class 150's to be sent to FGW^▸ (First Great Western) i have been told  is 15th october, but i suspect that this may be pushed back again.

Yawn. We've been here repeatedly before in the last few weeks. Who told you that 172s had gone back to Derby, who told you that the "last date" for 150s to be sent to FGW was 15 Oct, and why do you suspect this may be pushed back again.

Mods have asked you time and again to source your gen, apparently to no avail as you're still ignoring us. Is it really too much to ask for you to have the courtesy to tell other forum members where you're getting all this "information" from?

[ChrisB]

 ESpecially as so much then turns out to be *wrong*.

[anthony215]

I have put up links sometimes when i have them. As for where i have got the information from,  I either have been told by freinds who are working for some of the rail operators or  I have read the information on other rail forums.

I have said that this info could change or could be proved wrong!!!

Here is an example of a thread where i have put up the links:

http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=7641.msg76223#new