Class 180 Adelantes - discussions, including their return to FGW

[whole diary]

[anthony215]

When the origional rumour of 165's going west was mooted, FGW^▸ (First Great Western) were planning to refurb them with 2+2 seating for CDF^» (Cardiff - next trains)-PMH, and yes all the FGW 16x units are 90MPH.

Wasn't it planned to send some class 165/166's to the Bristol area when they were displaced by the new EMU^▸ (Electric Multiple Unit)'S on crossrail?

Finally if FGW have enough class 180's, if they do receive the ones from Northern is it possible to run some services as 10 carriages i.e. 2X class 180's between Oxford & London? i am sure i have seen some photos somewhere of this happening.

[inspector_blakey]

10-car Adelantes certainly did happen - I travelled on a few. Not just on Oxford services but also on Bristol services and probably elsewhere as well. I think some ran 10-car to Oxford then split, with the front 5 going on to the Cotswold Line and the rear 5 returning to the yard before forming a service back to London.

[devon_metro]

0710 Oxford - Paddington used to be 10 car 180 afaik.

[IndustryInsider]

I think some ran 10-car to Oxford then split, with the front 5 going on to the Cotswold Line and the rear 5 returning to the yard before forming a service back to London.

I don't think that ever happened, not with all 10-cars in service at least - but 10-car formations were used on a regular commuter service pretty much until the end of their tenure with FGW^▸ (First Great Western) as devon_metro says.  That involved the trains first 6 carriages being opened with the SDO^▸ (Selective Door Opening) switch at Cholsey, Goring etc.  Also, a few years previously a 10-car used to work a peak time Paddington to Bristol service (17:15 I think) and the odd service over the weekend.

[willc]

I think some ran 10-car to Oxford then split, with the front 5 going on to the Cotswold Line and the rear 5 returning to the yard before forming a service back to London.

Agree with Insider this didn't happen on Cotswold services. What certainly did happen was that the pair of 180s which worked the 07.10 would then return empty stock to Oxford before being split in the sidings to work separately for the rest of the day.

When the origional rumour of 165's going west was mooted, FGW^▸ (First Great Western) were planning to refurb them with 2+2 seating for CDF^» (Cardiff - next trains)-PMH

But a recent Modern Railways article about the Turbo refresh said that when FGW and Angel Trains looked at fitting 2+2 seats when planning the refresh work, they realised that there were two big problems:
a. The coolant header tank is under one of the three-seat benches and is as wide as the seats and would have to be replaced or modified if 2+2 seats were fitted.
b. The different weight distribution, due partly to the extra space in the aisles, would have an impact on braking performance when a train was crush loaded, which would mean modifications to the brakes.
Can't see them rushing to do any of that on just a handful of Turbos.

[inspector_blakey]

I don't think that ever happened, not with all 10-cars in service at least - but 10-car formations were used on a regular commuter service pretty much until the end of their tenure with FGW^▸ (First Great Western) as devon_metro says.  That involved the trains first 6 carriages being opened with the SDO^▸ (Selective Door Opening) switch at Cholsey, Goring etc.  Also, a few years previously a 10-car used to work a peak time Paddington to Bristol service (17:15 I think) and the odd service over the weekend.

Could well be my memory playing tricks. Although I'm sure I remember watching staff at Oxford station make a complete hash of either coupling or splitting a 10-car Adelante very early one Saturday morning just after the December 2004 FGWL timetable came into effect (which was when the 180s and HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train) were introduced in significant numbers on the Oxford - Paddington service).

[Worcester_Passenger]

I don't think that ever happened, not with all 10-cars in service at least - but 10-car formations were used on a regular commuter service pretty much until the end of their tenure with FGW^▸ (First Great Western) as devon_metro says.  That involved the trains first 6 carriages being opened with the SDO^▸ (Selective Door Opening) switch at Cholsey, Goring etc.  Also, a few years previously a 10-car used to work a peak time Paddington to Bristol service (17:15 I think) and the odd service over the weekend.

Could well be my memory playing tricks.

I certainly remember 10-car formations on the Bristol route. And there was one occassion when a pair worked from Shrub Hill through to Paddington. One was so late that they ran the two together, albeit (as per II's memory) with only one of them in passenger use.

[ChrisB]

Right......

Firstly, 165/166 Turbos are unable to travel west of Bedwyn owing to the lack of NRN^▸ (National Radio Network) - National Radio Network - they have no in-cab radios.
The forthcoming GSM-R^▸ (Global System for Mobile communications - Railway.) network that Chiltern are currently fitting to their turbos would sort that problem - but there's currently no plans to fit it to FGW^▸ (First Great Western) turbos.

So, there's zero substance in anyone saying that FGW turbos are going west. Or that route clearance is the obstacle. Total crap.

FGW haven't considered changing turbo seating to 2+2 for a long time. So that's scotched that rumour too.

Absolutely NO decision yet taken on the 180s - discussions are taking place with interested parties. Funding needs to be found. All unfounded rumour, so far. As is any 158s going to EMT^» (East Midlands Trains - about).

Hope this helps. All info gleaned from Directors at FGW.

[northwesterntrains]

Where's the money to refurbish coming from?.....

If FGW^▸ (First Great Western) take them, they'll be as is, I reckon.

The FC^‡(resolve) section wasn't in a brillant condition when the 3 arrived at Northern and it's been allowed to detirate further and that's been helped by Northern using it as standard class so everyone on Northern services wants to sit in carriage D if seats are available there.  If carriage D is returned to FC it will need at least replacement seat covers and faulty lights being replaced, otherwise there will be objections from people holding FC tickets.

[ChrisB]

THanks for that info - I'm sure FGW^▸ (First Great Western) are aware - even more money to be found then.

[northwesterntrains]

Absolutely NO decision yet taken on the 180s - discussions are taking place with interested parties. Funding needs to be found.

I think that's the underlying reason for the rumours.  No operator who has been linked with the 180s has said they are not interested.  

Funding does need to found and whoever takes on the 180s can find some money by subleasing smaller units or returning them to the leasing company, which is where the 158 rumours could have originated from.

[ChrisB]

I think the general idea is to increase stock / seats.....

[IndustryInsider]

Firstly, 165/166 Turbos are unable to travel west of Bedwyn owing to the lack of NRN^▸ (National Radio Network) - National Radio Network - they have no in-cab radios.
The forthcoming GSM-R^▸ (Global System for Mobile communications - Railway.) network that Chiltern are currently fitting to their turbos would sort that problem - but there's currently no plans to fit it to FGW^▸ (First Great Western) turbos.

Thanks, Chris.  Interesting answers - Good to hear extra capacity is being looked at.  I'm not one to argue with a directors statements, but...

1)  Turbos (using GSM-P) were allowed to go to Bristol without being fitted with NRN.  They also run under GSM-P conditions all the while over the Costwolds at the moment.
2)  GSM-R is the replacement for NRN and GSM-P.  As I understand it, all trains will be fitted with it in time - including Turbos/HST^▸ (High Speed Train)'s that FGW operate.  Though I'm not sure how far away that is from happening as the trials on the Cambrian line have hit difficulties as was recently discussed.

[northwesterntrains]

I think the general idea is to increase stock / seats.....

I'm not doubting that but a 180 is the same sort of capacity as 2x158s, so the 5x180s replacing 4x158s rumour would be equivalent to gaining 6x158s in capacity terms but with the disadvantage of reduced flexibility as you obviously can't spilt a 180 like you can spilt a 4 car 158.

Also while operators want more stock you can't stop DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) coming up with strange ideas.  Northern got more 158s with the idea of increasing capacity on Yorkshire services but DfT came up with the idea of sending the cascaded 142s to FGW^▸ (First Great Western) as well as some of the 158s that were supposed to replace them to Scotrail leaving Northern short and having to take on 180s to fill the gap.  Northern are now due to get the rest of the FGW 142s back to replace the 180s, so it'll almost leave them back where they started!

[northwesterntrains]

I'm not one to argue with a directors statements.

Directors can make mistakes.  Apparently a FGW^▸ (First Great Western) director once said Pacers can't cross third rail, despite them having done so at Hunts Cross (Merseyside) and Chester for many years.