Class 180 Adelantes - discussions, including their return to FGW

[whole diary]

[northwesterntrains]

Hull trains is a little bit of a surprise.

I suppose it depends on whether Hull Trains will be allowed to extend their 180 lease.  DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) seems to have changed their policy with open access operators taking on stock originally ordered by BR^▸ (British Rail(ways)) or for franchised operations.

[Btline]

I think this thread should be moved to the rumour mill.

[grahame]

Then again when FGW^▸ (First Great Western) get the IEP^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project.)'s what will happen to the 180's that said FGW could get all 14 180's back and use them instead of all the bi-mode IEP'S or the 180's could be displaced to ATW^▸ (Arriva Trains Wales (former TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company))) etc.

When the IEPs arrive, are there not also supposed to be a small number of existing (high speed) trains retained for use beyond Exeter ...

[inspector_blakey]

I think this thread should be moved to the rumour mill.

In common with comments in other threads to this effect, none of us mods really have the time nor the inclination to sift all the way back through 25 pages and extract the individual posts that are evidence-deficient. There is information here that has come from reasonably reliable sources too. Plus there's the issue that by surgically excising a selection of the posts that make up the thread, what is left may become incomprehsible and lacking in context.

You'll note that the title was amended some time ago to read 'Plus current rumours of a return to FGW^▸ (First Great Western)', which I think ought to make the context fairly clear to all concerned.

Bottom line - now we have the Rumour Mill as a resource, we can and will actively be nipping things in the bud when they've veered too far in the direction of rumour and speculation. However, in a thread such as this which has been running for such a long time, it's not straightforward to seperate out rumour from fact, and doing so is likely to produce two different threads, both of which are a complete dog's breakfast because of the loss in continuity that teasing the two apart has led to.

Complaint therefore not upheld

[paul7575]

Then again when FGW^▸ (First Great Western) get the IEP^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project.)'s what will happen to the 180's that said FGW could get all 14 180's back and use them instead of all the bi-mode IEP'S or the 180's could be displaced to ATW^▸ (Arriva Trains Wales (former TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company))) etc.

Your maths is way out.  FGW are down for 35 bi-mode IEP diagrams (which would normally be about 40 units) - but the 180s are a complete irrelevance as they are not a bi-mode equivalent.

If a order for polaris trains is made, then perhaps  CSRE could do a deal with the government about order cheap DMU^▸ (Diesel Multiple Unit)'s to replace the pacers, this could lead to them also opening a uk plant, like Hitachi.

Anything to do with GC^» (Great Central Railway - link to heritage line)'s or HT^▸ (Hull Trains)'s units really is purely hypothetical - but my own view is that despite their persistent advertising such as in Rail magazine [1] you'll never see a Polaris or any other sort of CSRE unit or train on those services.  GC are hardly a going concern using the existing units and a few HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train) that no-one else wanted - why would they suddenly be able to afford lease a fleet of new trains?

Orders for DMU's, however cheap, won't be achieved by CSRE 'doing a deal with Government' - normal EU^» (European Union - about) competitive procurement rules would still have to apply...

[1] What I'm thinking here, is that really where you'd advertise to the people buying train fleets?)

Paul

[Maxwell P]

Then again when FGW^▸ (First Great Western) get the IEP^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project.)'s what will happen to the 180's that said FGW could get all 14 180's back and use them instead of all the bi-mode IEP'S or the 180's could be displaced to ATW^▸ (Arriva Trains Wales (former TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company))) etc.

When the IEPs arrive, are there not also supposed to be a small number of existing (high speed) trains retained for use beyond Exeter ...

 It is certainly feasible that IEP could work as far as EXD^» (Exeter St Davids - next trains), but AFAIK^▸ (as far as I know) the main squadron service from PAD^» (Paddington (London) - next trains) to Devon and Cornwall will still be in the hands of our old friends the 253/4 fleet.  Without wishing to speculate, (or stray into Rumour Mill territory  ), I have heard that the best of the HST^▸ (High Speed Train) fleet will have another refurb, plug type auto doors and retention WCs^▸ (Wiltshire Council (Unitary Authority)) fitted.  Presumably, the rest will eventually be cannibalised and scrapped.  Once again, I am sure that someone from the 'fleet' side will have more authoritative info.

[ChrisB]

Yup, i've heard that too...

[grahame]

... I have heard that the best of the HST^▸ (High Speed Train) fleet will have another refurb, plug type auto doors and retention WCs^▸ (Wiltshire Council (Unitary Authority)) fitted.  Presumably, the rest will eventually be cannibalised and scrapped. ....

Yes, that's what I heard and indeed "a small fleet retained for services beyond Exeter" was part of a presentation in (I think) March.

One wonders just how much difference there is between the "best" and the rest - or at least the next-best.  If all the engineering work is being planned, productions set up, etc, to redo between 10 and 20 HSTs for the far South West services, then why not do a "run on" order for a further dozen, 2 x power car + 5 intermediates, for Cardiff Bristol - Portsmouth.   Sort out the capacity issues within the hourly train on that line for a year or two at just an incremental cost, and release 158 units to strengthen service anywhere from Falmouth to Truro through to Swindon to Salisbury. Both of these are lines where more frequent one or two coach trains that were running after the 2006 timetable changes should - by that point - have capacity issues. 

[ChrisB]

Driver knowledge, I suspect. Bristol - Portsmouth drivers won't have HST^▸ (High Speed Train) knowledge - ans gaining that isn't an incremental cost

[Maxwell P]

158s Great for longer distance services, but the small, end door only layout makes them less than ideal for high density work, i.e. FAL-TRU

[northwesterntrains]

There was a piece on I think you and yours where they discussed how Pacers could be made disability compliant in 2018! Whcich would mean they would be around until at least 2025!

I think even Roger Ford has ceased trying to make sense of DaFT^» (Department for Transport - critical sounding abbreviation I discourage - about) figures.

There are ways of Pacers DDA^» (Disability Discrimination Act - about) complaint but they are either non-economically viable compared to the cost of new 172s or would restrict which lines they can be used on.

Relating to 142s, with the exception of the ATW^▸ (Arriva Trains Wales (former TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company))) sets the seats aren't complaint as someone with mobility issues needs to be able to easily sit down and stand up which having low down seats doesn't comply with.  The ATW 142s, the 143s and the 144s don't have that issue.

The toilet and double step are the two big issues.  I'm not sure what it's like in the South West and South Wales but in the North there are a lot of platforms that aren't compatible with the Pacer ramps.  Rebuilding hundreds of platforms or getting rid of the double step would cost millions but not using them on certain lines would not cost millions.  Again adding a DDA compliant toilet at the end of one of the carriages would be expensive but using them on lines only with a frequent service and short journey time could get around having the expensive modification.

The cheaper workarounds would however mean a lot of Pacer operated lines couldn't still have Pacer use so they would need to be divided up a lot more than they are now.  Then we have the issue of convincing operators like LM^▸ (London Midland - recent franchise) to swap superior units for Pacers and issues around maintenance being more difficult with small fleets everywhere.

[inspector_blakey]

The discussion had wandered slightly towards the takeover of Grand Central by DB^» (Deutsche Bahn - German State Railway - about)/Arriva - as ChrisB correctly pointed out there is a separate thread dealing with this issue, I've excised these posts and merged them in with the main thread. You can find the main topic here, hopefully it still makes some kind of sense.

[bleeder4]

Apologies if there is another thread about this - I had a look at previous threads but couldn't see one.

Interesting article in today's Evesham Journal (online version at http://www.eveshamjournal.co.uk/archive/2011/11/23/Latest+%28wn_news_latest%29/9381048.Rail_users_can_expect_a_better_service_after___29m_investment/) in which it mentions how 'most' of the turbo services will be replaced with Adelantes.

This is fantastic news in my opinion, I always felt the Adelantes (being halfway between the lacklustre capacity of a Turbo and the sometimes overkill capacity of an HST^▸ (High Speed Train)) were perfect for services on the Cotswold line and it's shorter platforms.

I recall there were concerns about reliability last time Adelantes were on the line but I, for one, never had an unpleasant trip on any of them.

[inspector_blakey]

Technically (at least as far as the bean-counters are concerned) the 180s have a near-identical capacity to a three-car 166. However that assumes full occupation of the middle seats on the Turbo units, which doesn't happen very often. It's certainly true that a 180 can carry more people better comfort!

[anthony215]

According to UK^▸ (United Kingdom) railforums  the 1st class 180 is supposed to be on its way from Newton Heath to Old Oak Common.

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=56429

Supposed to have left Newton Heath at 12:04 and the route is it supposed to be taking is:

Route is via Eccles, Hartford, Crewe, Stafford, Rugley, Rugby, Milton Keynes and Watford Junction.