Class 180 Adelantes - discussions, including their return to FGW

[whole diary]

[Phil]

I saw it at Didcot yesterday, surrounded by a goodly number of amateur photographers, so I'd imagine there'll be plenty of photos online by now. It looked very smart.

[anthony215]

Some here:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/willc2009/

[Chris from Nailsea]

As ever, thanks to willc for those pictures. 

[anthony215]

Some photos online of one of the class 180 on test at Moreton In Marsh

[inspector_blakey]

Refurbishment work on the 180s and the conversion of the buffet cars to TS vehicles were both covered in an article in a recent edition of RAIL (forget the number, sorry). It was mentioned in the article, almost as a footnote, that FGW^▸ (First Great Western) was removing guard's door control panels installed whilst the units were at Northern and re-siting them in the driver's cabs.

Quite aside from the issues that this may well cause with the unions, this seems like a bit of a strange move. I'm assuming there is some sound reasoning behind it somewhere: my best guess would be to ensure FGW has a standard fleet because not all of the units they will be taking on have this modification. Is that the real reason?

[IndustryInsider]

Presumably that's the real reason, though the RMT^▸ (National Union of Rail, Maritime & Transport Workers) aren't happy and consider it the first step to undermining the TM^‡(resolve)'s duties and therefore being able to be done away with to help achieve the aims of the McNulty review.  They say fitting the non Northern units with the same control panels and giving TM's full control of the doors would be the best option.

Interestingly, with the 180s scheduled to operate only over the Cotswold Line, the actual method of despatch would be virtually identical to the Turbos that have plied the route for nearly 20 years (the exception being the permission part that is mentioned below).  The driver releases the doors, the TM tells the driver to shut the doors and then gives the driver the RA and the train departs.  The old method of Class 180 despatch involved the driver getting permission to open the doors once the train was platformed - which sometimes led to a long delay sat at a platform before the doors opened.  Not good for punctuality and not good for the anxiety levels of passengers waiting to board or alight!  Perhaps that's more to do with the real reasons?

One thing is for sure, the old method for 180s, a mixture of Turbo DOO^▸ (Driver-Only Operation (that is, trains which operate without carrying a guard)) and HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train) method of work was a bit of a hotch-potch arrangement and didn't work very well.

[Btline]

What about for DOO^▸ (Driver-Only Operation (that is, trains which operate without carrying a guard)) if a 180 is put on the halts? Can the driver just release one door?

What's the point in this driver/guard door thing. Either let the guard do it, or just the driver (with cameras/mirrors, etc)! A dual system causes delays, as bewildered commuters jab at the buttons, frustrated that the door doesn't open.

I wish they could get rid of those loud BEEPS that deafen shocked bystanders and sort out those SQUEAKY brakes that cause even the most seasoned commuter wince with pain.

Also, knock a door through the guards van into the carriage so bikes can be loaded/unloaded quicker without passengers getting off and running to the nearest door as agitated platform staff blow their whistle.

[IndustryInsider]

What about for DOO^▸ (Driver-Only Operation (that is, trains which operate without carrying a guard)) if a 180 is put on the halts? Can the driver just release one door?

What's the point in this driver/guard door thing. Either let the guard do it, or just the driver (with cameras/mirrors, etc)! A dual system causes delays, as bewildered commuters jab at the buttons, frustrated that the door doesn't open.

I wish they could get rid of those loud BEEPS that deafen shocked bystanders and sort out those SQUEAKY brakes that cause even the most seasoned commuter wince with pain.

The 180s have SDO^▸ (Selective Door Opening), so yes, one door can be released if selected by the driver.  I think my post explained why the dual system was settled on - unions not wanting to see the role of guards diminish.  Though, I agree, one method or the other should really be decided upon from an operational point of view.

Also, knock a door through the guards van into the carriage so bikes can be loaded/unloaded quicker without passengers getting off and running to the nearest door as agitated platform staff blow their whistle.

The problem there is that there is no guards van as such and the bike compartment is located in the crumple zone of the train where passengers are not allowed to be when the train is moving.  If there was a public access door there then there would be nothing to ensure that the crumple zone is only occupied by the poor staff!

[Richard Fairhurst]

Pendolinos have through-access from passenger accommodation to the bike compartment in the "crumple zone", so it's possible. However, the external door to the bike compartment can only be unlocked by staff, and this can (and does) lead to delays.

[IndustryInsider]

That's the same set-up as an Adelante then I think, Richard.  There is a through door to the crumple/bike zone (only opened by staff) on our units as well.  Makes more sense, in terms of reducing delays, to tell the punters collecting bikes to leave the vehicle by one of the external doors and wait at the end of the train there bike is stored at as the TM^‡(resolve) could be anywhere on the unit.

[Btline]

The other problem is that there is a bike store at each end - how are cyclists meant to know which one to use?

I have seen passengers board the Pendolino bike store at Sandwell & Dudley and told to stay in there until New Street where they would be let out to re-join the passenger saloon. This was done because the train was running late because said cyclists had tried boarding, bikes and all, further up the train. The guard was fuming and didn't want to waste more time letting them run back down the platform after loading the bikes.

You haven't said why this system was used? If the unions didn't want to see the guard diminish - why have the driver doing stuff at all?

[IndustryInsider]

The other problem is that there is a bike store at each end - how are cyclists meant to know which one to use?

Operationally it used to be the one at the rear of the train, where the guard was.  Unless that one was full, or the passenger was joining or alighting at somewhere with a short platform in which case it was the front end, often with the drivers assistance.  It usually worked quite well, but sometimes left a little to be desired!

You haven't said why this system was used? If the unions didn't want to see the guard diminish - why have the driver doing stuff at all?

That's a good question, and one I don't know the answer to.  Anybody?

[Chris from Nailsea]

I have seen a driver of an HST^▸ (High Speed Train), stopping at Nailsea & Backwell, climb down from his cab and nip back to the cycle store to assist the train manager at the rear of the train with despatch by ensuring that the door is closed properly. 

[d5351]

You haven't said why this system was used? If the unions didn't want to see the guard diminish - why have the driver doing stuff at all?

That's a good question, and one I don't know the answer to.  Anybody?

The controls for how many doors are released under SDO^▸ (Selective Door Opening) are in the cab, so the driver needs to be in control of release. The Northern mod bypassed SDO hence the removal as some Cotswold line stations need it.

The compromise on build was to do a mod where the driver releases the doors but there are panels in the train to allow the guard to do door close. When they come back they'll be as they were when they left so unions can't complain!

[IndustryInsider]

Well, the unions are complaining (of course!).  Understood, and thanks for that information, but it still doesn't really the answer the question as to why, when they were originally built (and not initially intended for services on the Cotswold Line), the SDO^▸ (Selective Door Opening) controls weren't included in the TM^‡(resolve)'s door panel, as per the HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train)? 

The only possible answers I can think of, is that when working in multiple it might present a few problems, or that the unions weren't on the ball (or consulted) when the design and consequent method of working were agreed.