Class 180 Adelantes - discussions, including their return to FGW

[whole diary]

[willc]

Just so - and we had some dmus that were very well matched to the needs of the Cotswold Line - they were called Adelantes, which may be able to do 125mph, but are really a souped-up regional dmu with a fancy nose - a hybrid, rather like the Cotswold Line itself, which is a mix of an express route and a regional railway rolled into one.

FGW^▸ (First Great Western) put the 180s on the Cotswold Line in 2004 because the 166s were no longer adequate for the job (they had helped grow traffic so well) - something that hasn't changed, although the Turbos have now reappeared in force in the absence of anything better (ie 180s) due to someone at FGW twigging - after acquiring lots of HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train) to replace 180s - that a train twice the size of an Adelante wasn't actually a very sensible replacement for them outside the peaks.

And if you think a 166 is well matched to the business on offer here, then do come up here and try travelling on the 8.58 or 9.54 from Malvern, or the early Sunday evening services from Worcester and Hereford operated by 166s. Every bit as nasty as an overloaded Portsmouth-Cardiff train - and at least the 158s have 2+2 seats, not suburban 3+2, so if you do get a seat it's a sight more comfortable than an overcrowded Turbo.

When it comes to non-standard trains, how about FGW's eight Class 143s, or 12 Class 153s? Both less numerous than the 14 Class 180s FGW used to operate.

As for reliability, most of that was down to poor build quality and design faults (also affecting the 175s), which could and should have been sorted out years ago, had the will been there. And if anyone knows how to handle them it's Old Oak Common - so why not bring some back to FGW? Though that should be subject to a thorough electrical and mechanical overhaul, addressing the known flaws, before they are put to work.

And who should pay for them? Well, maybe First Group might dip into its profit margin. A modest ^264m, despite the state of the economy, a figure the City apparently believes will be north of ^300m for 2010-11.

[IndustryInsider]

How about we all just hope that the (very real) possibility that nobody will want them and they'll end up languishing in store for ages doesn't come to pass?  A sorry state of affairs that certain members of the class have already experienced.

[smithy]

could a 180 work cdf-portsmouth, what are there clearances around some of the tunnels that other classes have to divert round?

they are not able to go through limpley stoke if memory serves me correctly also not passed south of warminster but maybe could be if needed???

they would be ideal on card-pomp just dont let SPM^▸ (St Philip's Marsh (Bristol depot)) touch them or they will never get repaired properly,leave it to OOC^▸ (Old Oak Common (depot)).
maybe FGW^▸ (First Great Western) could then get shot of the pacers for good

[6 OF 2 redundant adjunct of unimatrix 01]

just out of interest why does northen not have any loco hauled services

[inspector_blakey]

they are not able to go through limpley stoke if memory serves me correctly

Not sure that's correct, smithy. I've been on several diverted Reading-Bristol services via the Berks and Hants and Limpley Stoke over the years that have been formed of Adelantes, so it would seem they're cleared for Westbury - Bathampton Junction at least. I don't know about south of Warminster though, but you're right, maybe they could be passed for that, perhaps with the odd infrastructure tweak here and there.

[brompton rail]

I think Northern are not likely to use loco-hauled trains as their licence does not cover such operation. The Workington shuttles were run, I think, on DRS^▸ (Direct Rail Services Ltd)'s licence. Remember FGW^▸ (First Great Western) run loco hauled (the sleepers) as a regular part of their business. Northern could, of course, get their licence changed, but that would be an additional expense.

I believe the above is correct, but feel sure someone will correct it if I am wrong.

[eightf48544]

"Licence" "change" "expense"

Three words that sum up the crazy way we run railways.

If Northern are considerd competant to run passenger trains why do they need a licence change to run loco hauled?

What is DaFT^» (Department for Transport - critical sounding abbreviation I discourage - about) worried about, that they might run more trains and actually provide seats for passengers?

Whatever next? You can't have that!

 

[tramway]

Surely GO http://www.go-now.coop/ will be looking for stock to run the services they are promising, although cost are probably prohibitive.

Cl180 sounds ideal for the distances they are considering, and would no doubt please Graham et al immensly.

[smithy]

they are not able to go through limpley stoke if memory serves me correctly

Not sure that's correct, smithy. I've been on several diverted Reading-Bristol services via the Berks and Hants and Limpley Stoke over the years that have been formed of Adelantes, so it would seem they're cleared for Westbury - Bathampton Junction at least. I don't know about south of Warminster though, but you're right, maybe they could be passed for that, perhaps with the odd infrastructure tweak here and there.

maybe there is a speed restriction then like 143's it is something to do with going under the bridge/viaduct (cannot remember exactly what it is) and the clearence or lack of it with the camber of track.well that is what i was told some years ago anyway.maybe someone can confirm?

[eightf48544]

Salisbury to Southampton was always tight in steam days. GW^▸ (Great Western) Halls etc. could not travel on that line although they could reach Southamton/ Bournemouth/Pompey via Basingstoke and Eastleigh.

Although I think it was mainly due some crossovers being between platforms thus if there was emergency single line working the loco could not use the crossover without either knocking its cylinder cover off and/or the platform coping stones.

Which is an interesting approach in that it bans a loco in anticiaption of having to invoke single line working, so that the SLW can be implemented quickly without staff having to worry about one of the trains' locos being Out of Gauge for the crossover which could cause even more disruption if it hits the platfrom edge.

Presumably this wouldn't apply to Adelalntes  as the crossovers have probably gone and no-one knows how to invoke Single Line Working anymore.

[grahame]

Surely GO http://www.go-now.coop/ will be looking for stock to run the services they are promising, although cost are probably prohibitive.

Cl180 sounds ideal for the distances they are considering, and would no doubt please Graham et al immensly.

They do indeed sound as if they would be worth a look, don't they 

[IndustryInsider]

Talk of Grand Central taking over the shelved Lincoln services (and presumably the Adelante's to operate them):

http://www.thisislincolnshire.co.uk/news/Lincoln-London-direct-rail-service-saved-train-operator/article-2344471-detail/article.html

[brompton rail]

Let's hope that they are maintained better than currently. The 10.22 Bradford to Kings Cross (amongst others) has been cancelled at least twice this week.

[signalandtelegraph]

How about Trans Pennine using them for their 'Scottish' services? 

[paul7575]

How about Trans Pennine using them for their 'Scottish' services? 

Five units would only allow for four daily diagrams - so it could only be a small proportion of the existing WCML^▸ (West Coast Main Line) services presumably. Could it work if they used 180s only to Edinburgh, allowing doubled up 185s to Glasgow for example?

Paul