South Wales local services - Pembroke, Fishguard, Swanline, etc.

[whole diary]

[anthony215]

I have a funny felling that they could do what they do on Sundays which is have a service from Swansea to Cardiff at around 23:45.

This could help get the class 153's back to Canton ready for the early morning service.

I normally commute from Pyle on the 06:42 so i will see in september what happens when the conductor annouces that the train is going to Pembroke Dock & Fishguard Hbr.

1 way to free up a class 150 is to use the loco hauled stock from WAG^» (Welsh Assembly Government - about) 1 as when it arrives from Holyhead in the Morning it has about 45 minutes available in canton before it needs to work to Fishguard and with it going over to class 67 & dvt it shouldnt be a problem turning the train at Carmarthen.


I too agree with WAG 2 starting from Swansea at 17:10 however with the tight timings i wouldnt stop it at Pyle and instead re-time the 16:55 & 17:55 departures from Swansea to Manchester to leave about 16:50&  17:50 and have them make a additional stop @ Pyle

[phile]

Saw the evening WAG^» (Welsh Assembly Government - about) Express from Cardiff to Holyhead on Monday formed 2 instead of 3 coach 175.       Half a coach at the most would have accomodated the passengers. Good old WAG.

[Hafren]

• The 153 that starts at Cardiff and currently seems to end it's day at Carmarthen (at 20:28) after running Pembroke services. Unless the third (and presumablly final) Pembroke diagram that does not go to Manchester starts from Carmarthen (somthing you'll have to inform me about) I can't see what there is for it to do in the morning at present.
  
• Of the two 153s that leave Canton at 06:42 neither get back, how does Canton not run out of 153s to send out every morning?

Trying to get my head around the workings... for clarity I believe the current Pembroke diagrams, i.e. the principal non-175 workings in the area, based on a combination of observations and the 2007 diagrams on the web...

[1]
6.42 CDF^» (Cardiff - next trains)-PMD (actually ex-Hereford having gone up there the night before)
(Split at CMN)
PMD-SWA^» (Swansea - next trains)
14.00 SWA-PMD
17.09 PMD-SWA
19.35 SWA-CMN

[2]
6.42 CDF-CMN
9.00 CMN-SWA
10.05 SWA-PMD
PMD-SWA
16.00 SWA-PMD
19.19 PMD-TEN-PMD (Connect with Manchester at Tenby)
21.09 PMD-SWA
Then night Fishguard and HoW^‡(resolve)

[3]
5.50 SWA-PMD (Canton ECS^▸ (Empty Coaching Stock) or formed off [1]?)
PMD-SWA
12.00 SWA-PMD
PMD-SWA
17.35 SWA-CMN
19.06 CMN-CDF

Canton also sends a 153 out on the 8.xx CDF-SWA-SHR^» (Shrewsbury - next trains) and one returns on the 22.32 SWA-CDF (ex 18.05 SHR-SWA).

The 2007 diagrams suggest [3] is formed by ECS from Canton in the small hours.
Any ideas what happens to [1] at the end? On Saturdays it attaches to the PMD-CDF, but on weekdays that's a 175 starting at Tenby. Maybe it's used on the 5.50 or runs ECS to Cardiff?

Now that there's an additional 175 to Tenby, things have changed a bit, but for the last couple of years it's been the case that everything that started in CMN on a weekday morning (and therefore ended there at night) was a 175. I don't know if the first up Swanline is still a 175 in the new timetable. (Will be working in Cardiff from next week so I'll look out for it...)

ATW^▸ (Arriva Trains Wales (former TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company))) seems to have a lot of 153-operated services for a fleet of (last time I checked) 8. The above 3, another 3 for the joint Swanline/HoW diagrams, whatever they need up north (Conwy Valley and Shrewsbury-Crewe?), and one can often be seen at Cardiff Bay. Hence 150s often substituting on any of the above. Most seem to start/end the day at Cardiff, 2 at Hereford (assuming the pair starts there together), and a couple up north at Shrewsbury or wherever.

Now, I'm going to assume the unit off the current 17:10 SWA - CDF has no more work to do after that. I'm also going to assume ATW extend the WAG^» (Welsh Assembly Government - about) 2 unit to start from SWA to cover for the lost 17:10 SWA - CDF. In this case, since all services seem to still be covered, there doesn't seem to be any reason for requiring an additional unit. The only thing that we might not be picking up on is peak strengthening of valleys services, and with the unit for the 15:14 CDF - SWA coming off a daytime HOWL service from Shrewsbury that looks unlikely.

Peak strengthening on the Valleys is the source of the daytime Fishguard train - it arrives about 10.40 at CDF Platform 4 and splits. In the evening it goes to Cheltenham in lieu of a train from Maesteg, which terminates at CDF and I assume then goes to evening Valleys work.
I think the 'other' Swanline diagram (9.14 and 13.14 ex CDF) is used for Valleys strengthening in the peaks.

One way to fill the daytime gap to Fishguard would be to use another valleys peak set to run CDF-FGH-CDF about an hour ahead of the boat train. I assume they won't because it would need extra funding for the CDF-CMN parts of the journey, which would be outside of the remit of the WAG funding for the 5 services.

Therefore, only one question remains, how does the unit off the 1st Pemborke, reaching SWA at 09:23, get back to Shrewsbury to form the next day's 15:30 CDF - FGH?

If I'm right, not only is the service achiveable even without the additional unit they claim to need, that 153 arriving at Swansea at 09:23 has nothing to do all day until it heads off back to Shrewsbury.

I'm confused by the reference to going back to Shrewsbury :-)

A set goes up to SHrewsbury thus:
8.xx CDF-SWA-SHR
14ish SHR-SWA
18.21 SWA-SHR

But I agree with the confusion about what happens next to the 9.23 arrival from PMD. This is the big missing link, as it does seem to be an 'extra' set from what I can tell. Maybe it goes to CDF and is used in the Valleys in the evening. It would be nice if it could be used for some extra Swanline workings, or even some shuttles to Pantyffynnon/Ammanford/Llandeilo, but I suppose then someone has to pay to run them!

It has been suggested here before that the first Pembroke train is very busy, hence it going 2 car in the form of the Manchester train. So presumably going back to 153 would be a bad idea...?

[phile]

Set 1 attaches Carmarthen  to 21 09 ex Pembroke Dock, stays coupled to Fishguard and then 05 50 Swansea to Pembroke Dock. There could be ecs ex Canton for 05.50 High Summer when services strengthened.      The 2 Sets ex Hereford work 00.30 Cardiff to Hereford and the 09 23 arrival Swansea ex Pembroke Dock is a through service to Manchester (sits at Swansea until 09.55) and 175 worked.

[Rhydgaled]

[1]
6.42 CDF^» (Cardiff - next trains)-PMD (actually ex-Hereford having gone up there the night before)
(Split at CMN)
PMD-SWA^» (Swansea - next trains)
14.00 SWA-PMD
17.09 PMD-SWA
19.35 SWA-CMN

The extra services to Fishguard don't seem to affect any service worked by that diagram, no extra unit needed here.

[2]
6.42 CDF-CMN
9.00 CMN-SWA
10.05 SWA-PMD
PMD-SWA
16.00 SWA-PMD
19.19 PMD-TEN-PMD (Connect with Manchester at Tenby)
21.09 PMD-SWA
Then night Fishguard and HoW^‡(resolve)

As the consultation document made clear, the 10:05 SWA - PMD is to be replaced with a 10:56 CMN - PMD, with the 09:00 CMN-SWA replaced by the 08:06 Fishguard - MAN (using the 175 taken away from the 1st Pembroke). Instead of the 09:00 CMN - SWA and the SWA - CMN portion of the 10:05 SWA - PMD the unit will work to Fishguard and back, resuming it's current diagram with no further changes. No extra unit needed here either.

[3]
5.50 SWA-PMD (Canton ECS^▸ (Empty Coaching Stock) or formed off [1]?)
PMD-SWA
12.00 SWA-PMD
PMD-SWA
17.35 SWA-CMN
19.06 CMN-CDF

Not involved in Fishguard services, no extra unit needed here.

One way to fill the daytime gap to Fishguard would be to use another valleys peak set to run CDF-FGH-CDF about an hour ahead of the boat train. I assume they won't because it would need extra funding for the CDF-CMN parts of the journey, which would be outside of the remit of the WAG^» (Welsh Assembly Government - about) funding for the 5 services.

The 15:30 CDF - Fishguard (Swanline) is a new service between SWA and CMN, although you could argue the same number of services exist on this line because the 10:05 SWA - PMD will no longer run SWA - CMN.

Therefore, only one question remains, how does the unit off the 1st Pemborke, reaching SWA at 09:23, get back to Shrewsbury to form the next day's 15:30 CDF - FGH?

If I'm right, not only is the service achiveable even without the additional unit they claim to need, that 153 arriving at Swansea at 09:23 has nothing to do all day until it heads off back to Shrewsbury.

I'm confused by the reference to going back to Shrewsbury :-)

Wasn't my diagram for the unit that forms the 15:30 CDF - Fishguard (Swanline) correct? It apparently comes down from Shrewsbury on the 09:00 HOWL, what goes down must go up! If you don't send a unit back up, there'd be nothing to form the next day's service down.

But I agree with the confusion about what happens next to the 9.23 arrival from PMD. This is the big missing link, as it does seem to be an 'extra' set from what I can tell. Maybe it goes to CDF and is used in the Valleys in the evening. It would be nice if it could be used for some extra Swanline workings, or even some shuttles to Pantyffynnon/Ammanford/Llandeilo, but I suppose then someone has to pay to run them!

Well, the unit off the 15:30 CDF - Fishguard (Swanline) ends the day at CMN by the looks of things, adding a non-175 unit (which would be the only such one going by your suggestion that everything stabled at CMN overnight right now is a 175) to those staying at CMN overnight. There's no other working back so logicly it'd take the 1st Pembroke that was vacated by the Manchester. That covers all the services without any extra units, unless, somehow, having the unit off the 15:30 CDF - Fishguard (Swanline) stabled at CMN rather than Canton prevents morning peak lengthening.

Set 1 attaches Carmarthen  to 21 09 ex Pembroke Dock, stays coupled to Fishguard and then 05 50 Swansea to Pembroke Dock. There could be ecs ex Canton for 05.50 High Summer when services strengthened.      The 2 Sets ex Hereford work 00.30 Cardiff to Hereford and the 09 23 arrival Swansea ex Pembroke Dock is a through service to Manchester (sits at Swansea until 09.55) and 175 worked.

Thanks for explaining what set 1 does at the end of the day. The 09:23 arrival ex Pembroke Dock is a through service to Manchester in the current timetable, as you say. However, from September that 09:55 SWA - MAN will (unless they change the planned timetable) orriginate from Fishguard rather than Pembroke. After leaving Fishguard, the train will depart Carmarthen at 09:00 so avoiding the long wait at Swansea for through passengers but orphaning the first Pembroke service. As I say, I cannot find where this fabled extra unit is needed and see no reason why that 09:23 arrival from the 1st Pembroke couldn't run a 10am-ish Swanline, re-fuel at Canton and run back to Fishguard to plug the 5-hour gap in the planned timetable.

[anthony215]

05:39 Cardiff - Milford Haven (Swanline) is worked by a 2 carriage class 175.

However, with regards to the 06:42 Cardiff - Pembroke Dock service most of the time on a saturday its formed of just 1 class 153.

The 05:50 Swansea - Pembroke Dock services is somtimes worked by a unit which comes down empty from canton depot even during the winter months. I have seen it pass through Bridgend/Pyle at about 05:10

[Hafren]

However, with regards to the 06:42 Cardiff - Pembroke Dock service most of the time on a saturday its formed of just 1 class 153.

On a Saturday the Pembroke Dock - Manchester has its long wait at Carmarthen, with the CMN-SWA^» (Swansea - next trains) running in the earlier slot arriving at SWA at 9.23. Therefore the 6.42 runs too late to drop off a set to form the CMN-SWA. So I guess the 5.50 on a Saturday does the split instead, supplemented by ECS^▸ (Empty Coaching Stock) from Canton...?

Set 1 attaches Carmarthen  to 21 09 ex Pembroke Dock, stays coupled to Fishguard and then 05 50 Swansea to Pembroke Dock. There could be ecs ex Canton for 05.50 High Summer when services strengthened.

When it didn't form that last working to Carmarthen (i.e. until May) it ended at Swansea at 19.23ish. Presumably it just laid over until 5.50, or did it go back to Canton?

Wasn't my diagram for the unit that forms the 15:30 CDF^» (Cardiff - next trains) - Fishguard (Swanline) correct? It apparently comes down from Shrewsbury on the 09:00 HOWL, what goes down must go up! If you don't send a unit back up, there'd be nothing to form the next day's service down.

The rest of the 153s would currently be something like this:

[1-3]
As above.
Often 2 car (mainly Pacers last year) during the high summer (July/August), but [2] tends to remain 153 because of its HoW^‡(resolve) duties the next day. The equivalent Saturday diagrams are always 2 car throughout the summer timetable.

[4]
8.08 CDF-SWA-SHR^» (Shrewsbury - next trains)
14.xx SHR-SWA
18.21 SWA-SHR
This takes a fresh unit to Shrewsbury.

[5]
5.xx SHR-SWA-CDF
11.14 CDF-SWA
13.15ish SWA-SHR
18.05 SHR-SWA
22.32 SWA-CDF
This returns a unit from Shrewsbury to Canton. I've occasionally seen 3 cars on the morning working for this purpose.

[6]
4.xx SWA-SHR (Off the [2] the day before)
9.xx SHR-SWA-CDF
15.14 CDF-SWA-CDF

[7...8?]
Whatever's needed up north for Conwy Valley (is Shrewsbury-Crewe still 153 as well?).
[4] and [5] move sets between Canton and Shrewsbury for these services.

So from September [2] and [6] are modified.

So going back to the above question, does [6] answer it?

Well, the unit off the 15:30 CDF - Fishguard (Swanline) ends the day at CMN by the looks of things, adding a non-175 unit (which would be the only such one going by your suggestion that everything stabled at CMN overnight right now is a 175) to those staying at CMN overnight. There's no other working back so logicly it'd take the 1st Pembroke that was vacated by the Manchester.

I still don't follow :-S If the 9.23 arrival from PMD can't be slotted into one of the above assumed diagrams (given that we can't see what it would do next) surely it must be a "new" unit. It does seem right that [6] will finish at CMN and form the first PMD service the next day, but changing where a diagram ends doesn't change the total number of sets available; if [6] is ending its day at CMN, we lose a set ending at Canton.

One possibility that springs to mind is that there could be some juggling with the two Swanline/HoW journeys that cross at SWA after 9am. IIRC^▸ (if I recall/remember/read correctly) the proposed timetable says existing services could be altered...

Purely speculation/suggestion as to what could happen... perhaps the 8.08  from Cardiff could be cut back to SWA, in which case it could just about be formed by the arrival from PMD if it's moved a bit earlier. If that were the case, the Swanline stops could be covered by the earlier Milford Haven train if it had a shorter dwell at CDF, which would in fact even out the morning down Swanline service.

Another thought occurs that it might just languish at SWA until 17.10 because no-one has paid for a crew to take it anywhere until then.

On Saturdays it's suggested that there will be a 10.05 SWA-PMD for it to form... which then means the FGH-CMN has nothing to do (couple to the 10.05 perhaps).

[Jez]

The first Swanline which starts at Carmarthen and leaves Swansea around 0710 is still a 175 as far as I know. It then forms the 9.20 Cardiff-Holyhead.

Are we sure all of the Pembroke Docks and HOW are booked as 153s? There are only 8 of them and quite often ive seen a 150 on a lot of HOW and Pembroke's recently. I also think the Swanline that doesnt interact with HOW is booked as a 150?

I noticed the Miford Service that leaves Cardiff at 08xx this morning was a 158. That would work the 11xx back from Milford and eventually reach Manchester and run the 1730 back to Cardiff.

[Hafren]

Are we sure all of the Pembroke Docks and HOW are booked as 153s? There are only 8 of them and quite often ive seen a 150 on a lot of HOW and Pembroke's recently. I also think the Swanline that doesnt interact with HOW is booked as a 150?

I've often wondered... if the Conwy Valley and Shrewsbury-Crewe are both 153s, that makes 8 diagrams, and last time I went to Cardiff Bay that was being covered by a 153 as well, suggesting they still had one spare. From what I've seen, all the Pembroke, HoW^‡(resolve) and HoW-Swanline units seem to have been 153s on weekdays over the last few months, with fairly random coverage by 150s. I wonder if one of the Pembrokes is officially a 150, or perhaps a 150 is booked to cycle around them through the week. I caught the Hereford-Pembroke a few weeks ago, and it was 150+153, but in the past 153+153 seemed quite common, but it does vary. A year or so ago I was semi-regular on the 15.14 CDF^» (Cardiff - next trains)-SWA^» (Swansea - next trains) on Fridays for a couple of months and it seemed almost 50/50 150/153.

The non-HoW Swanline does seem to be a 150, which would fit in with it being a Valleys peak unit.

[Jez]

Are we sure all of the Pembroke Docks and HOW are booked as 153s? There are only 8 of them and quite often ive seen a 150 on a lot of HOW and Pembroke's recently. I also think the Swanline that doesnt interact with HOW is booked as a 150?

I've often wondered... if the Conwy Valley and Shrewsbury-Crewe are both 153s, that makes 8 diagrams, and last time I went to Cardiff Bay that was being covered by a 153 as well, suggesting they still had one spare. From what I've seen, all the Pembroke, HoW^‡(resolve) and HoW-Swanline units seem to have been 153s on weekdays over the last few months, with fairly random coverage by 150s. I wonder if one of the Pembrokes is officially a 150, or perhaps a 150 is booked to cycle around them. I caught the Hereford-Pembroke a few weeks ago, and it was 150+153, but in the past 153+153 seemed quite common, but it does vary.

The non-HoW Swanline does seem to be a 150, which would fit in with it being a Valleys peak unit.

I dont have first hand experience of the Shewsbury-Crewe local service but a friend told me its still a 153. However I think the Shrewsbury and Crewe local, Conwy Valley, HOW, Pembroke and Swanline all tend to use 153's but because there arent quite enough of them they use 150s to fill the gaps.  What runs the Wrexham local service plus the Crewe-Chester service? Are these 153s as well?

I think Cardiff Bay tends to be a mix of 153 and pacers. I even saw a 150 one day but later in the day it was a pacer so perhaps they just take off the valley's whatever is available.  Any news on the 121 coming back into service?  On a Saturday ive even seen a 153 on a valley line service, not for a while tho, possibly the last time was last Summer and they obviously swapped a pacer  and I assume used the pacer on Pembroke Dock.

The other swanline does seem to be a 150, very rarely a 153. On a Saturday its often a pacer tho so I assume that 150 is used on the valleys on Saturdays.

[Jez]

Regarding diagram 3 which you mention above, i notice that now forms the 19xx from Carmarthen to Cardiff and therefore the fast service from Swansea at around 2000 which used to go to Crewe etc but now goes as far as Cardiff. I have noticed that has been a mix of 153/150 and even a pacer on occasions (possibly Saturdays). It also explains why they terminate it at Cardiff and dont send it via the marches to Crewe and beyond now its not a 175. The 175 now obviously swaps with the local train at Tenby and forms the Swanline that leaves Swansea around 2130. This also spends the night at Canton it woulds seem.

Also the new 1804 Swanline which used to go at 1738 and be an extension of the Ebbw Vale service (still is on a Saturday), that is a 150, where does this come from? I assume its taken off the Valleys? Or perhaps its the one that terminates at Cardiff around 1620.

[Hafren]

What runs the Wrexham local service plus the Crewe-Chester service? Are these 153s as well?

When North Wales transferred to Wales & Borders, a couple of 153s were moved from First North Western to W&B to cover Wrexham-Bidston, but a few years ago ATW^▸ (Arriva Trains Wales (former TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company))) reported that the line was going over to 2-car operation, i.e. 150s. That was around the time that some extra 150s moved to ATW, possibly in exchange for 153s.

The other swanline does seem to be a 150, very rarely a 153. On a Saturday its often a pacer tho so I assume that 150 is used on the valleys on Saturdays.

The pattern of valleys usage is probably different on a Saturday, which would have some bearing on that unit. Ebbw Vale's Saturday strengthening also springs to mind as a destination for the 150. Speculating a bit, I wonder if the extra 150s needed for Ebbw Vale, even more so on Saturdays, are the reason for Pacers becoming so common when 2 car units go to Pembrokeshire.

Also the new 1804 Swanline which used to go at 1738 and be an extension of the Ebbw Vale service (still is on a Saturday), that is a 150, where does this come from? I assume its taken off the Valleys? Or perhaps its the one that terminates at Cardiff around 1620.

It could still come off the Ebbw Vale unit; perhaps the 18.3x arrival just shunts out of the way and returns for the 18.04.

[animationmilo]

the Shrewsbury to Crewe local is formed of whatever runs on the 18:21 from Swansea. So lets say tonights 18:21 is 153320 thats Crewe tomorrow and Saturdays 05:19.

[Jez]

Yes the Shrewsbury to Crewe local is probabaly formed of the previous days HOW service so I guess a mix of 150/153 but mainly 153's.

Just seen the 1905 (or whatever time it is) from Carmarthen-Cardiff pass and it was a 150 tonight.

I assume the 150s on Wrexham will need to go back to Cardiff at some point tho so they would be swapped? Im guessing on Saturdays there is a lot more units required than weekdays with the leisure communters on the valleys plus on Pembroke/HOW. It just makes it a lot more busy so I guess they move units about a bit. Could be why some 158's appear on the Cardiff-Manchesters on weekends too as some extra 175's are needed in North Wales??

[phile]

Shrewsbury Crewe Local 150 Wunter 153 Summer
Blaenau Ffestiniog 153 Winter 150 Summer.     They change over seasonally to provide more carriages to Blaenau Ffestiniog
150 works 21 50 Shrewsbury to Crewe to work North (Bidstons also)  and 23 08 Shrewsbury Cardiff in opposite direction.