South Wales local services - Pembroke, Fishguard, Swanline, etc.

[whole diary]

[Jez]

This looks like the only through Manchester service, and as such I don't think we need to worry about taking 175s off other long-distance trains, but if this is indeed to be a 175-op'd through working, what happens to the first Pembroke Dock service...?

Perhaps the first Pembroke service will operate as far as Swansea and be a 150/153?

What happens to the 17.10 Swanline? It has been noted that WAG^» (Welsh Assembly Government - about) 2 currently languishes in Cardiff all day. Perhaps it runs ECS^▸ (Empty Coaching Stock) to Swansea and forms the 17.10, which would basically restore the through service shown in the draft May 2011 timetable! If it runs ECS to Swansea, I'd suggest using it for an extra 16.04 CDF^» (Cardiff - next trains)-Swanline ;-)
Alternatively, perhaps the 16.55 will just make extra stops, perhaps with a later subsequent departure from Cardiff to the Marches.

Also what happens to the 1514 CDF-SWA^» (Swansea - next trains) service if that diagram is to go on a 15.30 CDF-FGH service? Perhaps the WAG express 175 will form the 1514 and the 1710 Swanlines. I cant imagine the 16.55 SWA-MAN stopping at Swanline to replace the 17.10 as both services are very busy and 16.55 might be a bit early for some Swanline commuters as the next swanline departs swansea after 7pm.

[Rhydgaled]

I doubt the extra platforms at Carmarthen and Whitland could be used without additional investment. I suspect the Carmarthen bay is only be signalled for shunt movements. Whitland's only extant bay is only accessible from the branch. The evening train that turns back at Whitland could be shunted from the up to down line via the east end crossover.

What's the difference between having something not signalled, and having it signaled for shunt movements but not passenger ones? Also, I've no idea about signaling, but I thought that trackwork-wise the intact bay at Whitland was accessible from the main line. However having checked a map I have on my hard drive I think you are right that it isn't.

Re permissive working at Fishguard, is the platform part of the token section? I have a feeling it would be, in which case another train couldn't run onto the branch. Having said that, perhaps a unit could shunt beyond the platform if the track to allow another train to run. TBH^▸ (to be honest) I don't really see the point of holding trains there overnight, given that the early & late Pembs and Milford trains don't do that, and the crew would then need taxis.

They could need a taxi, or they could perhaps use a company car and leave it at Fishguard during the day so long as they always roster staff who have a car driving licence.

Do loco run-rounds not affect token working? Do you think that beyond the platform would be outside the token section then? The point of holding trains there overnight is two-fold. First (and this probablly applies to the very first Milford and Pembroke services each day) I think it is a bit of a waste of fuel having to run what are almost ECS^▸ (Empty Coaching Stock) moves when they would be avoided if a unit spent the night at FGH, PMD and Milford Haven. Secondly, Pembroke and Milford don't have a funding slice allocated for precisly 5 extra trains each way per day, nor do they have the concern that their service is only a trial and will be withdrawn after a few years if it doesn't see enough patronage. There was an article somwhere (might have been wikipedia though) that suggested the service level at Fishguard was under review which would either lead to a service improvment, or a withdrawal of service. Therefore I am concerned that getting the timetable wrong now will mean the end of the line (not just the 5 extra trains, but the track as well, which would make getting any service ever again much harder) when the trial period ends. Those 3 ECS workings (the first 2 into Fishguard in the morning, and the last train out in the evening) are eating into our precious 5 trains each way. If they didn't count towards our 5 I wouldn't mind so much, but I'd still be concerned about the fuel use.

It is as you mention a very different timetable to Milford and esspecially Pembroke which have pretty much a two-hourly service, in Pembroke's case without peek extras. Is an almost hourly morning peek service for Fishguard really worth the loss of lesuire travelers due to the huge gaps in the off-peak schedule? With the distances involved, I'd be supprised if an extra coach was needed for the peak let alone an almost hourly service. Some interesting figures, with a 6:55am first departure, 6:55pm last departure, 08:35am first arrival and 8:35pm last arrival 6 trains per day can in theroy be equally spaced exactly 2-hours apart. The railway probablly can't get the ferry times moved, so there would have to be some compromises, but they could do alot better than having 5hr gaps. I thought a gap slightly less than 3 hours in the normally every-2-hours bus service on my route back from university was bad!

One last thing, can you really get from Fishguard to Whitland in 23mins or does the 6:53 departure from Fishguard on the proposed timetable contain another error?

[bobm]

What's the difference between having something not signalled, and having it signaled for shunt movements but not passenger ones?

I am sure someone can give a more detailed explanation but I gather it has to do with the way the position of the points is detected and locked within the signalling system. Until last year this was the situation at Wokingham. Trains coming from Waterloo which couldn't continue to Reading because of disruption had two options. Either shunt out of service over the crossover at the end of platform 2 and then change ends and draw back into Platform 1 or more usually carry on empty out of service and pick up their return journey at Bracknell as there wasn't time for all that shunting at Wokingham.

Now the systems have been changed and trains can start back to Waterloo (or Redhill/Gatwick) in service from platform 2. It's being put to good use this weekend as the work at Reading means everything turns back at Wokingham.

[Hafren]

What's the difference between having something not signalled, and having it signaled for shunt movements but not passenger ones? Also, I've no idea about signaling, but I thought that trackwork-wise the intact bay at Whitland was accessible from the main line. However having checked a map I have on my hard drive I think you are right that it isn't.

Mainly signalling, I think. Perhaps someone 'in the know' could comment on this....

The most visible difference is that when a passenger train approaches Carmarthen station it has a main aspect (i.e. coloured light, in this case would be yellow as coming to the end of the line) with the indicator saying UP or DP (up/down platform). If it's going into sidings, including a non-passenger bay etc, it'll be shown a subsidiary aspect (white lights) indicating a shunt move. Behind the scenes, there'd probably be a rule saying passenger trains not passed into the platform, and perhaps an issue of track not being maintained to required standard? Facing point locks are relevant, but the CMN bay comes off the running and they're the only points so they would presumably have FPL^▸ (Facing Point Lock) anyway.

Also there's probably only a shunt signal for starting from the platform. I don't think I've ever noticed a proper signal in the bay.

Actually a passenger train would have white lights to be called on into an occupied platform, as often happens at Carmarthen... So that makes it a grey area, but generally a passenger line will be signalled with a main aspect.

I believe this is why Platform 0 at Cardiff never takes arrivals - it was originally a non-passenger line AFAIR, and allowing loaded arrivals would require the entrance signals to be set up for the move; it's easier just to put in a starting signal for departing moves.

Whitland's bay connects directly to the start of the branch. This is curving away form the main line at that point, so quite a lot of modification, perhaps in the form of a scissor-like arrangement across the branch turnout, would be needed to connect it to the main line. The connections to the sidings etc on the up side were rationalised/severed a few years ago. If you search Google Images for Whitland signal box, there are some good photos of the frame and diagram somewhere, which give a good idea of the layout and signalling.

The up arrival that then runs ECS^▸ (Empty Coaching Stock) to CLR can possibly cross over the points onto the down line, but the reversing signal in the up platform is a ground disc, and so the train can't be loaded. It also looks like that end of the points has no facing point lock; there is one on the other side of the crossover, as trains from Tenby will hit them from that end. The train in the evening could run ECS from the platform to the east end, then reverse over the crossover there, back over the level crossing and into the down platform.

Do loco run-rounds not affect token working? Do you think that beyond the platform would be outside the token section then?

If I have time I'll have a scout for photos or check the sectional appendix (one 'appeared' on the internet a few years ago) to see if they shed any light. I suppose loco run-arounds are fine as the loco and coaches are both 'in section' at a location set up for the purpose. I suspect the token may be required to operate the run-around points.

The evening working may be of some use, but those morning down trains look particularly useless. To be fair I expected it to happen, but given the 'promise' of 5 extra trains it's not a great situation. I wonder how the waste of fuel and track access charges compares to the cost of transporting the driver, along with the issue of security of a train being held at a remove location for the night. I would suggest, however, that Fishguard is more secure than Pembroke Dock etc, being located within the port.

It is as you mention a very different timetable to Milford and esspecially Pembroke which have pretty much a two-hourly service, in Pembroke's case without peek extras. Is an almost hourly morning peek service for Fishguard really worth the loss of lesuire travelers due to the huge gaps in the off-peak schedule?

Pembroke does of course have a special timetable for its (well, Tenby's) actual peak, summer Saturdays, in order to accommodate FGW^▸ (First Great Western). I've often thought it would be good for Milford and Pembroke to have trains better timed for commuting at least to Carmarthen in both directions, but it wouldn't be easy to resource, especially with the standard pattern timetable, and I wonder what the genuine need is. If the Fishguard service demonstrates a strong commuter flow to CMN or even small flows to SWA^» (Swansea - next trains), perhaps the users in South Pembs will in turn be asking for 'fill-in' peak services.

One last thing, can you really get from Fishguard to Whitland in 23mins or does the 6:53 departure from Fishguard on the proposed timetable contain another error?

Doesn't look right. As it's 10 minutes below the current journey time, it looks like a simple typo.

Perhaps the first Pembroke service will operate as far as Swansea and be a 150/153?

I'd assume so, but what happens to it then? All other services are accounted for, and if an extra Sprinter is available, it would be odd that the entire Fishguard timetable seems to be based on using existing units.

Also what happens to the 1514 CDF^» (Cardiff - next trains)-SWA service if that diagram is to go on a 15.30 CDF-FGH service? Perhaps the WAG^» (Welsh Assembly Government - about) express 175 will form the 1514 and the 1710 Swanlines.

Not sure what you're getting at: isn't the plan for the current 15.14 itself to become the 15.30?
 

[Hafren]

That early morning train that's a bit too quick... is it supposed to terminate at Clarbeston Road, and not Whitland? The timing would make more sense then.

[anthony215]

 FGW^▸ (First Great Western) do have 2 atw class 150's which they are expected to use til at least september so its possible that 1 of these could be used.

I would surprise me if they take a pacer of 1 of the valley lines diagrams or something. I noted today that a pacer was working the 13:30 Fishguard Hbr - Cheltenham Spa service. feel sorry for the passengers on it as it was packed when it arrived.

Also 158840 was in use on the 15:20 Cardiff - Maesteg service, surprisinly all the diargams on the Maesteg - Cheletenham route were 158's

ATW^▸ (Arriva Trains Wales (former TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company))) and FGW do see to be having problems with their departure screans, it was showing that the 06:42 Cardiff - Pembroke dock service was cancelled but it was in front of a fgw class 158 on platform 3 and was worked by a class 142.

Also anyone know what happened to the 07:00 Cardiff - Bristol - Birmingham - Manchester service today. It's shown in the timetable but didnt operate today at all and the FGW website was showing a Swindon - Westbury service at 08:33 from swindon.


I am sure a lot of  enthusiasts would like to see a loco hauled set work the 17:10 swanline to Cardiff, hopefully they will fit the mk3 stock with power door's, as it will have a hard time keeping to times with having to close the doors all the time unless it misses out Pyle and the 17:55  departure to Manchester serves Pyle instead

[Jez]

Not sure what you're getting at: isn't the plan for the current 15.14 itself to become the 15.30?
 

Ah right I hadnt realised the 15.14 Swanline was to become the 15.30.

[Jez]

Also 158840 was in use on the 15:20 Cardiff - Maesteg service, surprisinly all the diargams on the Maesteg - Cheletenham route were 158's

Also anyone know what happened to the 07:00 Cardiff - Bristol - Birmingham - Manchester service today. It's shown in the timetable but didnt operate today at all and the FGW^▸ (First Great Western) website was showing a Swindon - Westbury service at 08:33 from swindon.

I noticed 158840 on Maesteg today. Not that surprised that all Cheltenham-Maesteg were 158's - they seem to often have mostly 158's when ive experienced this service. I guess the 150s are tied up with valleys/cardiff local routes/pembroke dock/swanline/crewe and chester local journeys etc plus they are apparently used a lot more on heart of wales now.

Not sure what happened to the 0700 XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) Manchester - perhaps it didnt run because its a Bank Holiday?

[anthony215]

Not too sure,  the other operators were operating a saturdays service, although there were a few minor changes. not sure what happened to the 04:58 Swansea - London service as i didnt see this pass through Pyle at all yesterday morning.

Also noted that FGW^▸ (First Great Western)'s departure board were showing the 14:21 Bristol TM^‡(resolve) - Cardiff service as delayed, but i left on time and was diverted to Bristol Parkway due to problems going via the other side of the triangle. There was a hst  sat there on the westbound line on the south wales side of the triangle which had been there for at least 40 minutes so not sure if it had failed perhaps.

The 09:49 Bristol TM - Weymouth service was also 30 minutes late at Castle Cary yesterday, not sure if it left Bristol on time as i had decided to get a trip on the 09:44 crosscountry szervice to Plymouth which was a hst, must say the refurbishedment is great personally this is the way FGW should have gone.


FGW also had a SWT^▸ (South West Trains) class 158 working on the Great Malvern/Gloucester - Weymouth service yesterday as well as 1 of the London midland class 153's which was on the 14:00 Cardiff - Taunton service which i passed at Patchway on the delayed 14:21 Bristol - Cardiff service

[Jez]

I have noticed the 22xx from Swansea to Cardiff Swanline which starts at Tenby (used to be Pembroke Dock) is now a 175. Guess this is because its the 1704 from Cardiff to Tenby. It often used to be a pacer or 150 before. 

[Jez]

Also notice the 20xx from Swansea-Cardiff is now a 150 or even a pacer - im guessing this is something to do with the change around of units on the Pembroke Dock line as this used to be a 175 that went to Chester. Explains why it terminates at Cardiff now with a seperate service from Cardiff-Chester.

[Rhydgaled]

And what happens to that first Pembroke train?

I'm not surprised by the interaction with the 7.50 SWA^» (Swansea - next trains)-PMD. If there had been a new dedicated unit, I'd have suggested using the split off this service to swap sets over, with the earlier Fishguard set then going through to Swansea as the 9.xx CMN-SWA.

Perhaps the unit that comes up from Swanline the night before becomes the Sprinter that would have formed the 9am CMN - SWA (assuming that's a Sprinter now), but if the 9am is now going to be the 175 from the Pembroke service that Sprinter could work the first Pembroke instead. Would that work?

Where would the unit come from to spilt off from that CDF^» (Cardiff - next trains) - Pembroke service, or is this diagramed for a pair of units anyway?

[Hafren]

Perhaps the unit that comes up from Swanline the night before becomes the Sprinter that would have formed the 9am CMN - SWA^» (Swansea - next trains) (assuming that's a Sprinter now), but if the 9am is now going to be the 175 from the Pembroke service that Sprinter could work the first Pembroke instead. Would that work?

Where would the unit come from to spilt off from that CDF^» (Cardiff - next trains) - Pembroke service, or is this diagramed for a pair of units anyway?

The 7.50 from SWA (6.xx CDF) has been a pair for a couple of years - usually 153s or whatever they can find, but last year became Pacers for the summer holidays. It drops a unit at Carmarthen, which currently appears to form the 9.00ish to Swansea and then onto a Pembroke Dock cycle.

[anthony215]

175001 managed to blow a turbo yesterday at Rhyl much to the shock of  the  passengers onboard so it is out of action for repairs. First north western should have ordered class 170's which are still better than the class 175's although they have sorted themselves out recently.

 With the Fishguard services starting in september ATW^▸ (Arriva Trains Wales (former TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company))) will need   all the units in service  that they can get.

some relief should come when they no longer have to send 1 class 150 to FGW^▸ (First Great Western), which should be around sepetmber time at London Midland are expecting at least 1 class 172 to enter Public service at the beginning of July

[animationmilo]

175001 was back in service the day after which was yesterday on the Holyhead service at 17:24 from Shrewsbury.